ES lore is a weird thing. A couple of years ago I really got into it, but then gave up when I realised practically every single thing mentioned, especially pertaining to gods and the 'order' of things, is ambiguous to the highest degree, meaning that practically everything that has ever happened is said to have happened in a number of strikingly different ways. This meant I could get no clear grasp on it, and felt awash in a sea of endless misinformation and skewered interpretation.
Now this is obviously intended, and it is also clearly where the sense of mystery and wonder comes from in the ES universe, but it is also its downfall - it's literally created some sort of elite class of fan - the loremaster, who worship the utterances of the man-god, MK. :wink_smile:, people who seem to have extracted some sort of interesting meanings from all this stuff.
Now I'm a massive fan of fantasy works, especially meticulously thought out universes brimming with interesting and challenging ideas, but ES leaves me a little lost in this regard - it's as if it's this great mystery that only a few people have fully figured out, and that the rest of us sort of grasp and at try to get, but really don't.

So what say yee?

So just like real life then?

Some of us like the fact that the truth continually eludes our grasp. It makes TES lore more comporable to real world religious and mythical systems (which have a tendency to resist easy categorization) than most standard fantasy.

Here's something to think about, though. Bethesda made Daggerfall with multiple endings. That meant that when it came time to make a sequel (Morrowind), they had to decide which was the "real" ending. Someone had the idea that all endings were real -- the timeline split, and then reconverged. So, someone writing about the deep theology and metaphysics of the Aurbis -- like MK -- is writing about a world in which time itself can split apart and come together again. Isn't he sort of forced into doing it the way he does?

The real mystery is the consensus that there indeed is a mystery. Everything in fictional world-building necessarily falls into the following categories:

1. Not talked about yet. (I.e. fictionally non-existent.)
2. Talked about. (I.e. a fact.)
3. Talked about multiple times, because a later explanation is better. (I.e. a retconned fact.)
4. Talked about multiple times, because multiple explanations fit the topic. (I.e. a deliberate fictional choice.)


The idea that writers would first invest a lot of effort into thinking something up and then try really hard to not make us get it, is, well, preposterous. It's the equivalent of Steven Spielberg walking into a movie screening to hand out blindfolds.

True, I guess this makes the most sense as to why it is how it is. But then, it does sometimes take on the appearance of being difficult or complex for the sake of it.
It's very interesting to me, especially when pertaining to oblivion - quite clearly someone looked at all the lore and thought this needs to be simplified, or made more easily digestable. So from morrowind to oblivion, we have on the one hand strong political intrigue and multilayered, and sometimes ambiguous storyline, and on the other hand, a much more black and white, good v bad conflict. Clearly when developing Skyrim they saw their mistake with oblivion - but I wonder if we will see a complete return to the ambiguous morrowind style, or more than likely, a mix of both? Do you think, todd, probably, at some point thought that the complexity of the lore was detrimental to its ability to be a massively popular franchise?

That's the point. You're supposed to think. Hard. Which you'll find has advantages over not having to think.

I'd say the ambiguity is a double edged sword, so to speak. Some fans like the ambiguity in the setting. It does bring a sense of reality into the setting that might be missing if there was only one official answer to everything, I think. Because in real life too, different people may have different beliefs on the same matter, not just in the obvious things which deal with subjects we're not aloud to discuss here. It can also be the case with historical accounts, or even scientific matters, if the subject is purely theoretical and has not been proven yet. The same matter can be reported in different ways depending on who you ask, and some like that the Elder Scrolls reflects this. It also encourages discussion and speculation among fans. I doubt we would have such a healthy lore community if the answer was always made obvious. However, I could certainly see how some fans could be confused by this ambiguity, and driven away from the lore as a result, maybe they just want to know what really happened.

Myself, I don't mind if a few things are kept ambiguous, not so much for the sake of ambiguity itself as just because some things are more interesting if they're a little mysterious, and revealing the right answer kills the sense of mystery.



It's entirely possible, though I don't think that's necessarily the case, as long as the lore that's actually necessary to understand the plot is easy enough to understand. Not everyone wants to research the history of fictional worlds to the point where they can write an essay on it to understand the story they just played through. So making extremely complex lore required learning just to understand the story is likely to hurt your chances to be a major success. But that doesn't mean we can't have complex lore, just that the parts you actually need to understand to know what's going on in the story need to be presented in a way most of your audience is likely to understand. You don't need to know how the Dwemer dissappeared to understand a story about Alduin trying to destroy the world with the help of dragons. And I'd imagine there's a good chance that the gamers who wouldn't want to take time to reseach lore that doesn't partain to the main story are ones who wouldn't be interested in it anyway. In short, if Bethesda wants the series to be successful, they don't need to simplify the lore, they just need to present the parts necessary to understand the story in a way that doesn't make you need to read ten different in game books just to understand who the main antagonist is.

I don't really get what's all that complicated.

Maybe we should start there: what about lore is it you find so opaque, sockola?

Its said to have happened in different ways, but that doesn't mean that there is not a 'right' answer. The Monomyth is one of the most ambiguous things in lore, but when you read through all the myths you will see that they are describing the same thing in slightly different ways. Instead of thinking of it as 9 different stories think of it as 9 viewpoins on the same story.


This view is damaging to your (everyone's) attempts to learn the lore. Its not only for "lore masters" and its not hard to understand. The Odyssey is not just for scholars of classical greek poetry and you don't have to be a Marukhathi to understand Shor son of Shor. All it takes is a willingness to learn and critical reading skills. Are there people who know lore better than most? Sure. But they aren't some sort of god-sent sages, they are just people who put a lot of time into doing this stuff.

Studying Dunmer theology is no harder than investigating Gnosticism or biology. In fact, it is much, much easier. Typing "Auriel" into TIL's search engine will reveal everything you need to know about Auriel, while trying to learn everything about Sophia probably requires reading many real life books o.o Is it as simple as 'this happened and then that happened'? No, its not. But neither is it impossible or brain surgery.

When in doubt, quote Vivec. He is an atlas of smoke

Ask question, read the forum, read debates, and look at the lore material. I do this, and I'm able to get a grasp of a lot of things going on. I'm also wrong a lot or what I say is not very elaborated on, but there are a lot of good people here that'll correct with material and explanations.

A lot of us became "lore masters" because we love the material to this game. Also, being a "lore master" is nothing more than a title given to those who are very knowledgeable by those who are/were not that knowing. I'm sometimes referred to one, though I'll deny it as I'm not that knowledgeable and there are plenty of more who are (but that's not to say I've been able to catch them being wrong at points).

And really, when you get pass MK's writing style and language, it's not really that complicated. Greek mythology can get much more complicated when you get into the nitty gritty, often requiring one to study it through college, grad school, and as a career. Just give yourself a few weekend to read a few basic material, and float around this area, you'll eventually get a hang of it. Most of us had to learn by doing so. Participate in a few debates too; you'll never learn if you don't put in the effort to at least ask for clarification.

Remember Shivering Isles? On the surface, you're saving a world from the Big Bad and get some cool powers in return. If you look deeper, you find a wonderful affirmation of the Enantiomorphic cycle and a whole lot of questions on the nature of Daedra.

Yeah Shivering Isles was really interesting. I'm still getting amazed every time I do it's main quest.

Mt. Whateverest.

Dude that is getting old :tongue:

What I love about TES Lore, is that as soon as you think you have it figured out, new stuff comes to your attention and your back at the start. Learning all the twists and trying to figure out the mysteries is extremely pleasurable for some people, not as much for others. If you don't find it enjoyable, at least accept the fact that some of us love the ambiguity.

The lore "fell down?" When? This is a best selling game series and the unique lore is a huge part of that.

yeah I mean I'm not attempting to say its crap, I really think it's an amazing work of creation, and I've derived alot of fun from reading the stuff, it's actually even inspired some of my own writing attempts. I just get the distinct feeling I don't understand the sort of larger picture of the whole thing that alot of people seem to, but obviously that's also one of the things that makes it what it is - a sort of weird fantasy mystery puzzle thingy of some description, where realising the true meaning of the thing would probably mean you have attained enlightenment or some other similar state (CHIM? : P).

I can count the number of people who really understand on one hand, and even they don't understand all there is to.

So pick the one that sounds best to you.

MORROWIND SPOILER

Well, King Hlaalu Helseth, Vivec the mortal admitted to have killed Nerevar, but Vivec the god didn't. Take his word if you wish, I personally find the idea that it was the Tribunal to be all the much better.

Also, no point in using spoilers here, this forum IS a spoiler!

As a corollary to what the Lady Nerevar wrote, there are quite a few people who only seem to understand the "larger picture." Don't worry about the sophistry, just read the written words and remember that they are only stories.

I'd like to second this.

More or less agreed, but b o l l o c k s got censored. Sue me.

Poppycock. Dude keeps writing the same story over and over and over again. Seriously, a sixteen year old can figure it out.

To be fair, the Cyrus stuff isn't like that. Mostly.


I'm gonna give you a hint, I've been at this off and on for something like 8 years now, and while I understand very well the existing stuff, anything new I can only get the gist of. It takes repeated anolysis and discussion before connections are made and the subtleties really shine through.

Ultimately, it's what you make of it. You can just bumble through the story and only pick up rough setting clues and plot points, you can read the books and extrapolate the larger world, you can wade into its metaphysics and begin to understand how that universe is constructed, and then you can hold and balance in your mind the idea that all of the lore is both real and fictional (and it knows it's fictional too) and start tearing apart the world and putting your own biases and spins on it.