Okay,

I've been on this site for a wee while now. I've finally plucked up the courage to ask a contentious question.

The question is this...

Bethesda is American. It seems to offer American values as the only ones worth holding to. I have often wondered why nobody questions this. Foremost in my mind at the moment is the ridiculous idea that all wild animals will attack on sight and must be killed to progress in the game. Wolf packs have to be slaughtered. Certain side-quests require the mindless killing of animals, such as Temla wide-arms request for ten bear skins. I hated taking the quests for the companions that implied that wild animals went into peoples' homes and attacked them, needing to be despatched without mercy. Wolves do not behave like this. They tend to avoid man wherever possible. Bears can be aggressive but not always. Big cats tend to be elusive and shy. Even small creatures such as spiders will not bite unless they are under extreme provocation. Bees don't sting unless they have to...even wasps don't, except for certain African species that are aggressive. Very few snake species are aggressive. Black mambas are quoted as being aggressive but will only attack if they fail to scare off predators. So why does every Skyrim predator attack without reason?

Aggression and attacking without need are largely charecteristics that belong in the human sphere...animals don't generally do this. They do it under extreme provocation or to defend their young when people have failed to take heed of all of their warnings.

All of this smacks of the American fixation with guns and killing things. I've spoken with Americans who don't understand why I don't have a gun, let alone why I am not interested in wandering the Lake District butchering wildlife.

As soon as I've got Kyne's Peace, I use it...not to avoid harm but to enable me to get where I'm going quicker and to cut down on the senseless slaughter that results in nothing more than selling pelts that I don't need.

Am I alone in my despair? Are there others out there who dislike the American culture that is being forced upon the world?

Reply...

...hopefully this will make for an interesting debate.

I'm not sure if this is a distinctly American thing as much as being a Video Game thing. I remember wild wolves being just as violent in the Fable series, Legend of Legaia, and Breath of Fire. Having a creature be aggressive is a symptom of games having a combat focus. Also I find that much of the wild life here will leave you alone as long as you leave them alone, get too close and then you have a problem. An argument for animals in Tamriel being 'meaner' then animals on Earth could also be made.

As for the rest of the statement about guns and American culture being forced upon the world. My experience tells me that a lot of if is being forced but just as much is being sought out. I'm sure my view is slanted having lived my whole life in the United States, but the internet does allow for a better grasp on this now than any other point in our history.

I don't think it's an American thing at all, humans worldwide have a fixation with animal killing. Look at the mindless kulling of sharks in Australia, fox hunting in England.


You don't need any protection walking in the Lake District because your ancestors have already slaughtered all the dangerous animals


In Skyrim, the only two aggressive animals you can really draw parallels to real life examples are bears and wolves. Bears are known to break into human settlements for food and the reactions of Skyrim's citizens is very much a good representation of many humans' response - i.e. One bear attacked our settlement, better kill all the Bears.


I've actually found bears in Skyrim quite accurate. They give very sufficient warning of their presence with loud roars and standing tall and if you back away they don't attack. Wolves today are very different to wolves in Skyrim's kind of era...humans have been killing wolves worldwide for centuries so associations between the two species are much rarer and consequently wolves are more wary of humans. I imagine several hundred years ago wolves were more bold and would probably attack lone travellers more frequently, especially in a harsh and food scarce environment such as Skyrim.

Agreed. All predators in all games i've seen are always Murderbears, Murderwolves and so on.
And most animals in Skyrim actually don't attack on sight, they start giving warning growls and attack only of you don't get away. That's improvement on the previous games.

This, basically.

Furthermore, when you have a nation whose entertainment has a worldwide market, some of that nation's culture will be imported with their entertainment. There's no avoiding it; most studios will focus on making something enjoyable in their own nation first, then try to force it to be acceptable to a worldwide market if the two are different enough. For example, in the US we see a lot of this with Japanese animation. To make it acceptable in the US, the imprting studio usually has to whitewash or remove nudity and will likely replace blood with "dirt" for anything aimed at kids. However, this doesn't remove aspects of Japanese culture that remains through the rest of the show or series, ranging from expressions and mannerisms, to overall themes and societal expectations.

It's just the nature of the beast.

As for if other people feel the same as the OP, I leave you with the musical stylings of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAM3rIBG5k. Stay for at least the end of the solo, trust me.

Wolf genocide is a time-honored European tradition.

Self Edited for content... ( nothing mean! )

"moral" is something that is relative; only human define it following their law and rules.

I'm more concerned by "violence" spread in these games than animal.

animal kill instinctively to defend themselves or to feed like this cat in this youtube video

watch?v=Ip05AlQFYx4

(I don't have right to post links)

that is the case of human and their livestocks.

Sorry, deleted post and not touching this one.

Stereotyping and prejudice rarely lead to a good discussion. Greenpeace (founded by both Americans and Canadians), the Audabon Society, the Sierra Club, the National Wildlife Federation, the Natural Resources Defence Council, and the Endangered Species Act (which was supported and signed into law by Richard Nixon of all people --for all his faults, Nixon was a strong supporter of protecting the Environment and the wild animals that live in it), are also "American things".


Edit: America inherited it's legal tradition of treating animals as property from English common law. It was an American, John Muir who first questioned whether "trees" had legal standing to make a legal claim to protect forests from being cleared, and his ideas blossomed into the environmental movement of the 1970s that gave us the Endangered Species Act, the National Environmental Protection Act, the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act. America has taken innovative approaches to animal rights with the Humane Society and PETA advocating new protections which have been put into American law to protect animals from cruelty, with legal protections patterned after child abuse laws.

Where are these bears? I have never encountered them. What I have encountered are bears that take too long to groggily get up from their nap before you go from their standoff zone to their aggro zone.

Their nap in the middle of the Shor-damned road.

And they chase you to the ends of Nirn even in full-tilt gallop on horseback.

Cumbrianlad


Ooooooooooo matey....you do like t' play with fire don'cha.


What I can not understand....at all.....is how you stood up right here and said all that......I Would have been roasted alive


Anyhow.....and Im not making excuses for anyone.....but.....although its perhaps true that Americans in some states are a bit closer to wild countryside and enjoy "sports" which involve shooting critters that is not technically necessary, it is also true that a lot of Americans do Not spend their weekends rampaging through the wilds in pickups shooting everything that moves. Even though gun ownership is widespread many are just handguns that get used only at clubs or never leave the house (inner city Uzi toting gangs excluded)


How many normal office dwelling New Yorkers get out with a rifle to hunt bear?


I know...compared to UK.... If you averaged it all out a higher proportion of Americans have probably shot something living than a UK citizen because.......

one) hardly anyone here ownes a weapon legally...its all so tightly controlled....even cross bows are illegal ( I Think)

two) most people here don't have the will to kill animals for sport....we are a nation of animal lovers (though we eat lots of meat)

three) controlled killing (culling) is very tightly controlled, except for rabbits and rats.

Four) we are short of the kind of wide open uninhabited spaces needed for safe discharge of firearms in the wilds. Even bird shoots are tightly controlled.

five) Everywhere in UK is OWNED by someone or some authority.....you can't just shoot where you like, and getting legal permission is both difficult and expensive.


So...the idea of slinging a rifle in the back of a 4x4 and charging off to go hunting in the woods is just not realistic as a "regular guy/gal hobby" over here!

Gun owners in UK are looked upon with a very suspicious eye....our first question in mind when introduced to one is are they safe people to be around (and not just when carrying) ....because of the second question in mind which is why do they want to be associated with firearms?


FWIW.....personally I am not nervous of guns...I've fired small bore rifle and oddly, but true, an smg....live rounds. But I AM nervous of people carrying guns....accidents happen!

I have no issue whatsoever with the idea of American citizens going out and firing weapons..........the Atlantic is very wide


Killing animals in games?........its a game! I love killing those stupid bears.

Would I shoot a real bear/dear/rabbit in my crosshair just for fun.....NO. The guilt would eat me for all my days!

http://www.insidervlv.com/landmass.html... The UK is slightly smaller than Oregon... and probably has more people per square Kilometer... the US as much more open space... many more "wild" animals.

I try not to flame broil people... it's not nice...lol

I can count on both hand's the number of animal's I have shot over 46 yr's... two were farm animals that were attacked by "wild" animals and had to be put down, 1 was a horse that's leg was broken in such a manner and place, that she could not be saved. 4 were "wild and/or feral" animals that were after our farm/ranch animals. I have never hunted as such, it's never been my thing... I AM a huge advocate of hunting laws and regulations ( pro ) .. and the control of wild animal's..who btw can be dangerous to children and small domesticated animals.... Bambi and Bullwinkle are not as nice as some people like to think they are...Flipper IS a predator and people forget that.

Wow. Cringeworthy OP. Just don't know where to begin. Fortunately Turija has stepped in with some excellent points. Others, too.

Cumbrianlad, I'm not sure where you got those ideas of yours. But I'd be a little embarrassed if I made such blanket (& uninformed, & un-backed-up, etc) statements about another group.

Funny you should mention that, I lived in London in college for several months and was missing the uninhabited spaces I grew up around, so decided to hop a bus for a trek through Epping Forest. All the locals were warning me not to go there without a guide cause they were afraid I would get lost, and I am like, its only a few thousand acres -- barely bigger than the farm I grew up on. IF I get lost, I will just walk in a straight line until I come out on the other side. It's such a small forest, you could walk from one end to the other in an hour or two. One of the houses I lived in growing up was in walking distance of the Gifford Pinchot National Forest, a relatively small (by American Standards) national forest in the states, which covers over 2,000 square miles (about three times the area of Greater London) and also includes what was at that time a very angry volcano you may have heard of called Mt. St. Helens.

Me too! But I'd feel even more guilty killing a mountain lion (which live in near proximity to where I live but are very reclusive so I've only glimpsed them once or twice in the wild). Might be a distant relative. Still kill sabercats in game though when they attack. A little Darwinism is good for the Khajiit gene pool.

We hunted for meat. Not trophies. We ate what we killed. Note that past tense please - we're too old to get out and do it right now, so it was time to quit. Boy I miss my venison, elk, rabbit, pheasant, chukar, dove, quail though.... BOY I miss it.

We have guns. Hunting type, plus a handgun for personal protection (we live a LONG way from law-enforcement, an hour on a GOOD day) - and both of us have concealed carry permits. As for predators - we have lots: bear, coyote, bobcat, cougar, eagles, hawks, feral dogs and cats - and they do wander into yards, but generally they wander back out before you have to call DWR to move them. However, people have been killed up north in the last few years, not only out camping, but in the city when they happened to run into some predator and hadn't a way to protect themselves.

I actually would prefer not having to kill wolves, bears, and sabre cats in a game. Then again, I'd prefer not having to kill bandits too - I'd really rather have non-violent ways to gain experience and progress through the game (yeah, I know you can craft your way up, etc. but I really mean say, doing quests that involve real diplomacy or something....)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starkey_Wilderness_Preserve My favorite park, in the area I grew up in. It's changed a lot over the yrs of course. The only trails when I first started walking them were dirt.. some with lime-stone thrown down so that the Park Rangers could get down them in their truck's to the "back side".. but I remember seeing Bear, bob-cat's, Cougar's, 'gator's and other assorted critter's.. some of whom the FWC would say didn't live in the area... but it's hard to mistake a bear or a cougar for a dog... unless it's really far distant and your half blind.

The mini-ranch I grew up on was right down the road from a wilderness preserve/ boy-girl scout camp...

I would not just go around shooting wolves IRL or mountain lions ( under various different names ) bears or any other predator... but in a game where they attack.. I have no remorse.

I said it would lead to a good discussion.

Some here have accused me of stereotyping Americans...I didn't do that. I simply offered you all a topic to chew over.

Jaberkat...etc, nothing that I put in my original post is unrealistic. You ought to try to verify your own opinion by putting up facts to justify yourself. I can tell you now that you won't be able to do it because you are wrong. I am not uninformed. why do you think that I need to back up what I say? Google it, if you want. You won't find that black mambas attack on sight because they don't. You wont find that wasps sting without provocation because they don't. I've swum over coral snakes and despite their capability to kill me they never attacked. What are you trying to say?

Rick...yes, occasionally I like to play with fire...but why not? Everyone likes a spectacle.

Aerial,

Who or what is 'Flipper' ? I've never heard of him/her/it.

Flipper ...specifically is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipper_(1964_TV_series) kinda like Lassie... only in the water... I was more or less referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottlenose_dolphin. Whom everyone has a nice "myth" about being kind and saving sailors... which in some instances might be true, but they have been known to attack people...without provocation, though it isn't the norm.

Turija,

If I was stereotyping Americans by suggesting that they had a propensity for killing and used gun laws to back this up, then I apologise. The fact remains that whilst other nations have realised that the possession of offensive weapons is not a good thing, America has yet to come to the same conclusion. To state that a nation has a propensity for killing, when it does, is not to stereotype that nation. It is simply an observation. The rest of the world may see things in a different light. America has the highest proportion of gun related deaths in the world, with the exception of a few countries like Colombia...that is fact.

Some here have stated that Europeans extinguished wolves and bears. That is true. It does not mean that I agree with it. To use that argument against me is like saying that other people were cannibals therefore I justify my own cannibalism. I agree that Europeans have been very wrong in the past, I am saying that we are not like that now...but that a number of Americans still are and that it is manifesting itself in their games. Bethesda could have chosen to alter this but it probably never occurred to them, because they are American. I am merely offering this idea up for discussion.

Oops! I've ruffled a few feathers.

First you were talking about indiscriminate killing of animals. Now you are talking about gun related deaths of people (most of which are suicides by the way, if you want to start examining the actual statistics of gun related deaths in the US). But that is an entirely different issue from people killing animals.

Neither of of these real world issues are appropriately discussed here in the Skyrim forum where we discuss video games. This whole thread should be locked or at least moved to the general community forum. But locked would be better since it started out with a prejudiced view of Americans, that arguably violates forum rules against bigotry. If you want to discuss these issues, I'd suggest starting a thread in the general community forum and start it with a little less stereotyping of Americans. There are millions of Americans and we don't all think or act alike.

Really shouldn't get into this but:


1. Has nothing to do with guns. As mentioned before, wholesale wolf slaughter has been a European tradition for centuries. In fact, certain animals have been on "kill on sight" in various regions worldwide since day 1 of human civilization.


2. it's a video game thing. You want to have a 100% peaceful outdoor existence where no animal ever attacks you? Go play something else or I'm sure there's a mod for that.


3. Idk about you, but wolves will indiscriminately attack livestock, including horses. Wild cats and bears will attack humans unprovoked.


Trying to blame this on some kind of imaginary American values is garbage, and think you might find the PETA forums more to your liking.

Here is where I think Turija is correct... those thing's aren't game related...

A video game is a game... reguardless of what is being killed...unless we are talking bouncy pink balls.. it's something that was alive... and well it is what it is.

Edit: If what you are saying is true about American's and our tendencies to shoot...animals... Would it not also be true, that we run over little old ladies while racing around in our souped up car's...shooting at everything in sight? Errr and don't forget Zombies... I mean we all love to shoot them....

Can one get Japanese anime that hasn't been "Americanized"? in the UK... cause... personally with some of the most popular ones... shooting Bambi is the least of someone's problem's if we use video games as our "test" of moral's.

I've often been somewhat critical of the Yankee doodles on these forums in the past, but I don't see where you're coming from. Violence and dominance over the natural world is a horrible trait, sure, but it's a human trait rampant in our species. It's brutal and heartless but it ensures our survival. It's not an American thing at all. Hell, look at my country. We used to have wolves and (I think) bears until we killed them all so we could live comfortably on our boring little island.


Every country, every culture, has this trope. Look at fairy tales from before America was even founded, they demonize the natural world far more. Look at fantasy in general. These tropes in video games, movies etc. that there's evil wolves and monsters in the woods have their roots in the literature, folklore and legends of the real world. My point is that humans to survive have essentially alienated ourselves from the natural world, so of course we're going to think it's scary and bad (or at least aspects of it). It's not nice, but that's the way we are.

I think you've talked to quite a few radical hillbillies, not your typical Americans. There's 320,000,000 of them, and I would think most of them would not think this way.

Oh and by the way, most of this is simply because morals in the real world can not be properly applied to a virtual world, so of course there's a lot of killing and murder, all that stuff.