After learning a bit about Tamrielic Gods and how the belief of the people can actually change Gods, cause people to ascend, or even split Gods apart- would it not seem that worshipping ancestors, like the Dunmer do, would cause there to be several helpful new Gods who have positive intentions for their kin?

Though, even as I say that, the Dunmer have had some of the most tragic things happen to them and their land. It doesn't entirely make sense because it would seem like they would receive more aid from their ancestors, whom they worship.

I think with them it's more of a house spirit thing though i'm likely wrong, haven't read the lore on that in ages though talos warship from the septims could be viewed as ancester warship.

The structure of their worship is more like venerated spirits instead of worshipping them "as gods." Not to mention their most frequently seen ritual is apparently tearing their close relatives from the grave to watch over family heirlooms and then get pissy if anyone else does it. So, while they would have power as ghosts and spirits, it's not quite to that level, because nobody is saying "My Uncle Rathis is a god!"

Yes, Worshipping Talos likely does count. At least in some sense it does. People think that it is Tiber Septim, so thats who they are worshipping. He didn't seem to be much help in Oblivion though. You'd think that he would have been more concerned about the Empire.

I can see where that is coming from.. But from a spiritual standpoint- if they are mentally applying energy towards these spirits, isn't that what ultimately would enable them to ascend?

I assume that doing it 'en masse' is what provides enough energy for it to work.

Belief isn't quite that powerful in TES. This isn't Mage: the Ascension.

Yes much better explanation then mine thank you. :sweat:

I mean- I guess the dunmer way would not be as powerful since there are multitudes of dead people, so the belief would spread out pretty thin.

So perhaps the Dunmer way of doing it is ultimately impotent.

Like they said, its not really worship as much as it extreme respect and honor to ones ancestors. People aren't going to Temple to worship their ancestors like they would the Tribunal.

About the Tribunal, I know two of them died- But Vivec was never reported as having died. He seemed to be more honest than the other ones and perhaps even partially atoned for his betrayal of Nerevar and Azura by helping the Nerevarine.

I keep wondering if he found an alternate means to hold on to his godliness.

None of the Tribunal were reported 'dead'. In fact when you told people you killed Alemexia and that she killed Sotha Sil they laughed it off and called you nutty. Vivec however achieved CHIM, and with it, greater power than any mere 'God'.

Look, you need to divide the idea of "worship" into two. Modern cultures mostly view worship as something exclusively from mortal to god. When people say "ancestor worship" they do not believe that the ancestors are, in fact, gods outside of particular circumstances. More like a spirit of protection than a guardian diety. A supernatural entity with distinct powers, yes, but not a god. Since nobody believes them to be gods, then they are not made so.

Yes, I understand the belief itself to be different. What I had briefly mentioned previously was the energy created by whole provinces (and sometimes more) believing in a particular Entity or God. That obviously shouldn't apply to the Dunmer since they, even in only believing in them as supernatural forces of protection, spread out their beliefs over too many different dead relatives etc for the energy to really concentrate onto one. It could of course be an issue with the intention behind the belief (what you were saying), and it could also be an issue with there being a lack of high volumes of energy that might need to come from a very large group of people. The whole province of Cyrodiil believes in Talos, and thus the energy is there in order to immortalize him. If you were to take into consideration that that might cause the effect, anyway.

Only the Aedra are really shaped by belief. Unfortunate side-effect of being half-dead.

And Talos achieved apotheosis through mantling, not just wishful thinking on the part of Cyrodiil. Although it did keep him up there, or at least it did.

From what I have read and discussed previously, the existence of Talos may very well be almost entirely fabricated by the Empire, so the belief itself could have created him if he does actually exist.

Dunmeri ancestor worship is pretty much the same as Confucian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety The main difference being that the Dunmeri people have a somewhat different idea of what certain values, such as respect, entails . (If Uncle Rathis didn't serve the Clan properly in life, then it's only fair that he does so in death as a Bonewalker, right?)

Well, if the belief can make it happen- why not?

Edit: Though in real life I imagine that walking dead things would quite creepy, even if you knew it was Uncle Rathis making up for a bad life. XD

It's actually the other way 'round: Hjalti-qua-Tiber fabricated the Empire.

The point of all this is that there are limitations to mortals shaping the divine. Chiefly, they can't just make new ones. The basic essences and roster of the gods are finite and set, the changes are in the particular accidents, that is, the superficial personae of the gods. Ergo, if sweet Uncle Rathis somehow became a god, the old codger wouldn't just ascend to become the new god of noogies; one of the existing deities would have to change and start walking like him. Also, the Dunmer collectively could believe that Rathis was a god with all the fibers of their collective heart of hearts, but that wouldn't be enough. He would actually have to take it upon himself to go down the walking way.

As for Hjalti/Tiber creating the Empire- yes. But is Tiber really Talos? Probably. Maybe not at first. Perhaps the Empire made him a God and thus he became one.

As far as having to "take it upon himself to go down the walking way.", I agree. I found it to be a given, which is why I did not mention it.

One question I have is why is it that people seem to focus in so much on belief-shaping-reality all of a sudden? In other settings (D&D, the aforementioned Mage, etc.), belief literally does control the gods, but in TES, the only quote I've found about the gods being "shaped" by any outside sources is from one in-game book's theory that spirits that get more worship are more powerful, and this from MK:





Don't get me wrong, I'm on-board with the Aedra being puppet-corpses, it adds a strangely dark undertone to the otherwise unfortunately bland representation they were given in Oblivion. But the MK post leads me to understand that it's the beings who "Walk Like Them" that end up shaping the gods, not the collective willpower of the Sleepers or somesuch. If there's a post or book that I've overlooked, pretty please point me in that direction, and I shall go off someplace quiet to read it.

^
Actually, the roots are in one of the Daggerfall books. The Light and the Dark, I think. Over time, there have been new rules added.

(Emphasis added)


Found it, thanks. It does look like a few of the details HAVE changed, though... No matter, "vox populi, vox deorum".

Though that's not to say that they don't have shrines like they would with the Tribunal or a Saint:

"Each residence has a family shrine. In poorer homes, it may be no more than a hearth or alcove where family relics are displayed and venerated. In wealthy homes, a room is set aside for the use of the ancestors. This shrine is called the Waiting Door, and represents the door to Oblivion."http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-ancestors-and-dunmer

Unrelated: It's of note when discussing Dunmeri ancestor worship that due to their system of belief, in accordance with "reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE" the Dunmer enter the ancestral bond. That is, they experience afterlife on Nirn. Granted, they still experience the erasure of the dreamsleeve just as any other afterlife scenario, an effect which manifests itself as the spirit losing its memory and going mad.

But it is. The divines are bound to the mundus, and the thoughts of mortals are able to change them. Akatosh has other aspects because mortals think he does. The difference is, I think, in the numbers. In order for your ancestors to become actual gods, a LOT of people would have to believe it.

Phynaster?