If you think about it, The Courier really left a mark on the world. Well... depending on how much you do, of course!

But in the gist of it, if he/she didn't make it, The Legion would have won, hands down. Don't get me wrong... I like the NCR (West side up in this mother plunker... throw them dubs up!), but I felt like they were caught off guard, on their heels, and The Legion had the momentum.

As for Mr. House, I don't think he could have made moves without help. And if...



Well...

You know, I have to say I'm disheartened reading so many of these responses. Not because they aren't cohesive or descriptive enough, but because NONE of them end with "...but war... war never changes."

The NCR would be destroyed, or eventually overrun by the fiends. Ceasers legion would probably be killed aswell, the boomers would never leave Nellis. The BoS would probably use the carnage to take control of certain areas and due to their advanced weaponry would fight off any fiends nearby. House would retreat and send all his robots into the lucky 38 and wait for the carnage to die down. The gangs in New Vegas would either fight each other and try and take the lucky 38 or ally against the invading fiends. The great khans would stay red rock canyon. Freeside would be wiped out by the fiends. But in the end the fiends leave the mojave desert because they ran out of drugs. And they have no idea what Hoover dam is. And when everyones else is dead or gone, the BoS would go in and take new vegas, wipe out any remaining fiends and rule the Mojave Wasteland

But war... war never changes.

Happy now?

:rofl: +2, War .... War never changes.

Benny keeps the Chip, without being forced out of the Tops he is able to plan and take his time regarding entrance to the Bunker, during which time House most likely confronts him and thus obtains the platinum chip. Being ever cautious House waits, trying to find someone he trusts enough to go into the Fort and the NCR, now caught at a standstill, starts to build up more forces. The monorail is destroyed, delivering a massive blow to the NCR, and during his visit to the Dam President Kimball is shot. Nelson is won back due to the huge masses of NCR troops that are beginning to arrive from California and The LEgion begins to feel the pressure, as such they begin to call in rough recruits from their Eastern lands, massing in much the same way as NCR. IN one sweeping blow the Legion throws their entire strength against the Dam, the results are horrible. Over 50% of both sides are lost in the fighting, but the Legion begins to slowly take the lead in the battle. Realizing that the Legion is going to win, house sends the majority of his forces, a mixed group of Mk1 securitrons and various troops from the Families. Most of these forces never leave, as the Omertas reveal their weapon cache and engage the forces, but gravely underestimate House, and within Moments are fighting for their lives. What little remains of House's group travels to the Fort, and a small force, cloaked, manage to make it to the Fort. They activate the army, and House sends them to the Battle for Hoover Dam. Though they easily destroy Caesar, everyone inside the Fort, Legate Lanius, and the entirety of the Legion's army, they are too late to save most of the NCR troops, and only a small percent survive, crawling back west to lick their wounds. ------EDIT-------But war, war never changes.

Soooooo.....yah, House wins, but NCR pulls out and completely refuses to acknowledge the strip. 3 years later a man claiming to be a simple traveler arrives in Freeside. With him he carries a Suitcase Nuke, and the explosion destroys the majority of New Vegas. The NCR blame it on remnants of the Legion. They gain what little is left of New Vegas.

This is how I think would go about. You know, provided most of the NPC characters actually do things THEMSELVES. God forbid.

Without the Courier to help Goodsprings, much of the town died in defense of it. It eventually survived but not without severe casualties. Without the Courier to help the Bright Followers and the subsequent town of Novac, the followers were overwhelmed and the town of Novac is forever plagued by the threat of Feral Ghouls. The NCR had Boulder City wiped out to the last Khan, only this time, the hostages were killed by the Khans. Benny, Platinum chip in hand, made his way to the Lucky 38 where he was quickly gunned down by the Securitrons. Mr. House, now flush with his victory, installed the MK 2 engine. With the new power, he ordered the best soldiers of the Three Families to sneak in and activate the Securitron Vault from the Fort.

The Three Families succeeded. After that, Kimball was successfully assassinated while Mr. House unleashed his Securitron hoard to wipe out Caesar's Legion down to the last man. Caesar himself ran east to protect his empire. The NCR, thinking they had won, headed to the Fort only to be ambushed and sent back to California by House's Securitrons. With no Courier to help House, he ended up losing income for years before the NCR citizens returned and revenues went back up online.

Many smaller tribes such as the Boomers and Great Khans remained as they were, some wiped out by House, and others staying alive, unchanged by the new management.
War...War never changes.

Legion would win, heres 3 reasons why

1. Morale rapidly declining
Moral Plays a huge part in an army's effectiveness, and most of the NCR troopers you find in the game are depressed, complaining, undedicated "soldiers" that seemed to be getting more and more worried about the eventual legion attack, and when they hear about events like what happened at Nipton, they get even more scared. Who wants to be crucified and tortured anyway? The Legion likely did this purely to affect NCR morale.

2. President Kimball dies, Caesar does not.
This would be the last blow to any morale left in the NCR. If the Courier does not intervene with the assassination during the Yes Man quest line, the President does die, and for good reason, the Legion had 3 seperate schemes going, and without you the NCR catches none! Meanwhile, the Legion has a strong leadership that all of his soldiers respect every decision he makes and are willing to die for him. The legion also has an immediate line of succession, so if something did happen to Caesar, the Legate immediately takes over, and morale is hardly affected, and combat effectiveness is possibly increased, to to a fear of facing the Legate of they lose.

3. The legion is more determined, more skilled, and more disciplined.
Simply, put the legion soldiers are a deadly fighting force than the NCR, and after the morale loss of the NCR, and the boost for the Legion for killing Kimball, there would be no hope for the NCR. Each Legion solider is trained from a small child, trained extremely hard, and then continue to train or fight everyday. The Legion bases don't have huge bars at them (eg unlike Mojave Outpost). The Legion does not allow its troops leave to go get wasted in Vegas. This is all forgetting the fact that the Legion nearly always beats NCR troops 1 on 1 when in close combat, and when they enter to Dam, they flow right into the dams 6 main sections, and once inside, it would be impossible to get into and destroy them. Oliver would be killed like the coward he his (hiding in the back with his guards). and the dam would fall to the legion

Now, I bet you are wondering, what about House? Honestly I think there are too many "if" questions to really put a solid hypothesis on him, so for now I leave him left out. It really depends on what Benny does, and if the Legion gets a hold of the chip.

Actually, since Caesar has a tumor, and his Legion, in all honesty, being little more than savages quoting Cato with not skills beyond combat, he dies from his brain tumor within a year or two (The way Silus indicates it, Caesars condition has gotten grave, his face being sunken and the continuouse headaches). The Legate would take over, but not being as charismatic and intelligent as Caesar, the Legion no longer follows Caesar, and in fighting for power erupts until it consumes itself to nothingness.

While this is somewhat true, lets not forget the fact that Caesar would be able to take over the dam before his tumor killed him, after gaining control of the dam, he could easily find a doctor and force him to fix the tumor ( he would most likely find one during the eventual dissolution of the Followers). But if he did in fact die, thats not to say the ruthless warmongers cannot create and maintain empires ( Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun, etc etc)

Which doctor?, FotA?, as most are women brutally killed or enslaved and sixually assaulted, not likely to help and most likely forcing one would be his death warrant.
As although somewhat temperant in nature, they are not Dali Lama, Martin Luther KIng and Ghandi of the FO universe.

Doc Mitchell? Just because he saved your life, does not mean he would caesar's.

Doc Henry?, most likely to be able to perform the op, but surrounded by mutants, and seemingly only living on to do good.

Dr Ada Strauss, He'd die of a ingrowing toe nail under her care let alone a tumor.

Most other Doctors are field medics, chop and shop maybe brilliant at what they do but also limited, or Scientists not medical doctors.
That and NCR, and as such would be killed, deader than a deader thats been dead for years at the bottom of a lava pit.

Actually the Legion respects Lanuis and even though i personally don't like him compared to Caesar he would keep the Legion together but the best would be Lucius the head of the Praetorians.

Theres always Arcade Gannon, if you side with Caesar to sell him to Caeser to be his personal doctor, while he reluctantly does the surgery.

If the courier died instead of being saved by Victor.

Benny would have taken over New Vegas and he would have killed Mr. House.
The NCR would have definitely collapsed because of Kimballs death and the fact that they're disorganized.
The Legion would have taken the dam.

So basically if the Courier died then Ceasars Legion would've taken over New Vegas and the Dam.

Ya but how would Benny kill House? He cant even get near the lucky 38 without being shot on site.

I forgot about that part but I still think Benny would've managed to kill House but it would have taken some time.

With no Courier to talk into helping him, it's doubtful Benny's plan would ever come to fruition. As such, he would remain in the Tops trying to figure out a way to take control of the Securitrons through Yes Man. Yes Man's tap into House network may or may not be discovered; if it is it will be shut down, locking Benny out.

Since nobody interfered with their plans, the Omertas make their play for power. If Benny does somehow manage to use the Chip they fail utterly; if not, the resulting violence forces the NCR to send troops into The Strip to calm things down, and eventually the Omertas are routed and killed which ends the violence and leaves NCR in control of The Strip.

Vulpes Inculta and any other Frumentarii who are spying on The Strip report this to Caesar, who takes advantage of the diversion of troops and immediately launches his assault on Hoover Dam. Caught out of position the NCR are initially forced back, however upon pacifying The Strip they send reinforcements to the damn and beat back the assault with heavy casualties.

The failure to take the damn combined with the effects of the tumor send Caesar into a rage, whereupon he does to Lanius what he did to the previous Legate. His remaining commanders, seeing his instability, depose him and then start fighting among themselves over who should succeed to Caesar's position; the resulting battles decimate the Legion and remove it as a threat for a long time.

The early assault prevents President Kimball from making his trip to the dam as planned. Instead he visits after the fighting and makes a speech praising the defenders; however, the immense casualties incurred during said defense make his words hollow, his popularity rapidly plummets as a result, and he is not re-elected.

House, his plans thwarted and the Chip out of his reach, bides his time and does not contest the NRC's seizure of The Strip. He does, however, remind them of the treaty, and once the dam is secure they reopen The Strip for business to reward their troops.

Having never been approached by The Courier, the BoS remain isolated in their bunker aside from the occasional trades for needed supplies. They continue to scout the region, but the reports do not change Elder McNamara's mind and he keeps the lockdown in place. Morale eventually hits rock bottom, and Hardin manages to get the backing he needs to supplant McNamara; he immediately orders an assault on HELIOS-1, which, while successful, draws massive retaliation from the NCR and results in the near-total annihilation of the BoS forces. The remaining troops withdraw to the west, ending the presence of the BoS in the Mojave region.

With the Legion no longer a threat, the NCR turns its attention to the various gangs running roughshod over the region. Massively outgunned and outnumbered, the Jackals and Fiends are rapidly exterminated. The Khans, having a more secure base, hold out a little longer, but are eventually overrun and eliminated as well.

Unable to find anyone willing to stop the flow of radiation into their water supply, the sharecroppers are unable to sustain their crops. Similarly, Dr. Hildern never does get the data from Vault 22, despite hiring several more mercenaries.

With no-one to act as their intermediary, the Followers of the Apocalypse are unable to prevent tensions in Freeside from boiling over, which causes the NCR to wipe out the Kings after Pacer's ill-fated attack on their food distribution center.

Goodsprings manages to fight off the Powder Gangers, but with heavy casualties, and has continuous problems with Geckos at their wells.

Primm remains under siege by Convicts until after the battle at the dam, at which point reinforcements are available to take the town.

The miners at Sloan, unable to get the quarry back in operation, eventually go back west in search of work.

I-15 remains a deathtrap for travelers, so caravans continue to take the long way around and travel along Route 95. As a result, Novac and the various trading posts along the way make a good living off those passing through. No longer needing to watch for Legion incursions, Manny and Boone instead pick off any Ferals that wander into town from the REPCONN Test Site, where Jason Bright and his followers remain sealed in their third-floor research lab since they cannot get past the Ferals or Nightkin to launch their rockets.

I doubt the Omertas would act until the Legion told them too but Benny could use that as a distraction to get into the lucky 38. Would he fail who knows but I don't think the NCR would completely take over the Mojave as easily as you said it would.

Victor was ordered to prep the Courier to be able to promote House's plans. If the Courier was killed, House would have kept an eye on Benny and the two Khans, using Victor. House had admitted that he could have had the Securitrons intervene and get the plat. chip but since he had the Courier, it was better to use him as a pawn. Without the Courier, House would have easily gotten the chip back by using brute force. This would have caused much needed damage control amongst the Three Families, but with the chip in hand, the Securitrons would have been upgraded and able to settle any sort of rebellion from the Families.

Now, in order for House to be able to have total control of the Mojave, he would need to activate the Securitrons in the bunker at the Fort. Without a pawn to activate them, he would probably wait for the most opportune time to send a group of upgraded Securitrons out to the Fort (which would probably be while the Legion was attacking the Dam.)

The Legion, 'given it's numerous advantages over the petty NCR force currently in the Mojave, would win the battle of the Dam, however, House would have had his opportunity to activate his army of Securitrons. The Legion's victory would be short lived as the Securitrons would quickly seize the Fort and later the Dam. With a multitude of Securitrons at his disposal, House would find a way to come in contract with the Boomers. House would be in a position to barter a deal with the Boomers. The Boomers want two things (to blow stuff up and to live in sanctity). House could provide both of these needs for them. With the Boomers on his side, NCR would eventually discover that it's not worth it to take the Mojave.

They would claim other territory, but the Mojave would be under House's jurisdiction. Based on canon and probability, this is my opinion of the most likely scenario.

House's biggest problem would be to find someone he could prep to take his place as he will not be able to live forever. Whoever takes House's place will probably be able to hold things together for so long, but eventually, he or she would fail and the NCR would gain control of the region once the area is at it's weakest due to it's own inevitable civil wars.

Uh, One problem with the above post, Who would activate the chip in the ?

It's pretty obvious that without the Courier, all sides suffer or fail in some way.

I already said in the above post that a group of his upgraded Securitrons would go out to the Fort to do it while the majority of the Legion are at the Dam.

Oh, the NCR doesn't manage it easily, and I say as much. It does kinda sound that way in total though, I'll give you that. I simply don't see a way for any of the other groups to win without the Courier's aid, since the NCR, while mired by hidebound bureaucracy, is the largest entity around and if provoked can readily take out the offending party. I do mention that they would take massive casualties while doing it though, and would likely initially lose control of the dam, but the sheer size of their army would enable them to take out the Legion.

I will grant that the Legion may well have a much larger force than the one we actually see, however the NCR's army is massive and likely far larger. I cannot prove that, of course, but all the available info we have certainly strongly suggests it is the case.

The courier rushed benny into caesers camp. That wouldnt happen, benny would then upgrade the securitrons. Then house would still be in control with upgraded securitrons kill benny, and then lauch an attack on the dam, the boomers remain isolated, primm is dead, goodsprings hands ringo over, and the fiends take outer vegas and mccaren. Leading to house erradicating the fiends becuse they would have acces to the strip via the monorail.
Jacobstown with no ncr harrasment remains the same, but the nightkin worsen and leave. The BoS would either be dead or retake helios one, but only elijah knew so it would take them time to get archamedies, and they would lack the controller. House always wins.