He tried to provide a valid argument and in the beginning was attacked for his opinion by people who refuse to believe that skyrim will have issues after release. A few other folks have read it and provided valid feedback countering his argument.

Add to that if he feels that changes should be made to suit him he can always post and provide his arguments as would I. Why? because I am a paying customer wanting a quality product, trust me it is way better than being the mindless consumer sheep

Thank you for actually contributing to this thread, Finn.

I knew this was going to be a difficult subject to mention, but I was unaware of just how difficult. In no way am I saying I'm able to produce a higher standard of quality, I am simply stating my opinion and wondering if anyone else notices these flaws as well. If not, so be it. I'll guarantee that these very issues I am discussing will boil to the surface after its release, as with all previous TES games, if these mechanical flaws are not fixed.

Oh yeah, I heard Spyro wasn't a linear game at all, it's a huge open world game and it's about 28 miles game size and you can do whatever you want...

Yeah, you can't compare the animations of games when they're completely different, Spyro was linear/not open world, so of course there's more time/focus on the animations.

We've all contributed to this thread. Difference is you haven't liked what anyone else had to say.

The style of game has nothing to do with the quality of its animations. If you are animating a human, or similar model within different games, if one developer does it better than others, you will notice.

Animating human limbs or creatures is much different than what type of game it actually is.



No, this is simply false. I have said several times that I appreciate all the feedback I've been getting. You must remember that I am arguing on my behalf, and one of the only people doing so. Which means, I present counter arguments for every argument I come across. It's called debate. I have also agreed with much of what people have had to say. If you were actually reading my posts, you would be aware of this.

The real issue here, is that you have been tossing around single sentence attacks against me without generating any substance, and it is uncalled for. This is constructive criticism, and I would expect anyone in defense of their arguments to be passionate about it. You have been short and shallow with me since your very first post on this thread, so I think it is you who actually doesn't like what I've had to say.

You didn't get my point;

The animators of Spyro had less things to animate, therefore they probably had more focus on the animations of Dragons, where as in MW, there was a hell of a lot more "stuff" to animate/program/test, etc.

It's like comparing a team of pilots in a small plane and a team of pilots with the same skill in a 747. Obviously the pilots in the small plane are going to have an easier time operating the plane than the pilots in the large plane.

This.

I'm actually getting tired of people complaining about Oblivion. When Oblivion came out it was the best game out by far. It IS a bloody brilliant game. Sure it has flaws, every [expletive] game has flaws. But Oblivion was amazing and was the reason so many new people got into TES.

Skyrim, will be awesome. It will be better. Quit nitpicking and enjoy the bloody game. Sometimes its down to people themselves why they don't enjoy the game, cause they can't stop complaining.

Sure. I understand this. But Bethesda is a team of over 100 people, creating AAA, well-funded projects. Several MMO's game worlds are much larger, and demonstrate better animation techniques than what I've seen from Bethesda since Morrowind. On a level of quality in terms of the industry standard, Bethesda has always been middle of the road or less when it comes to animation and game mechanics. And while they boast about their new engine, I still see these flaws.

As I have said, this is not a be all, end all, but it is noticeable to me using a keen eye, and criticizing it. Remember, this game will be criticized upon release, and I will bet that there will be a recurring theme with similar MW/OB, Bethesda-style game mechanics that hinder the experience. To what degree it hinders the experience, is based on the player.



"Complaining" is what critics do when they review games. "Complaining" is what critics do when they review movies. Anything in the entertainment industry is dissected and examined for its pros, cons, enjoyment, production quality/value... this is inevitable.

I never said Oblivion wasn't brilliant, I simply relayed the common reaction from the press and a large majority of its players when they talked about its game mechanics. Morrowind suffered in this way as well. I love Oblivion. I'm playing it right now, for the second time. I am also playing Morrowind for the third time. I do not doubt that I will enjoy Skyrim immensely.. but I do have doubts in regards to similar, awkward game mechanics making a return. Which is why I started this topic to begin with.

You all need to realize that I'm not here to bash Skyrim lol. Actually read my posts before over-reacting and attacking me.

I think it just all comes down to how much the flaws of the game will effect your overall experience. Yes, I know Skyrim will have it's flaws, but I'm not going to let that bother me as I make my journey in the land of Skyrim

I'm not saying you're this type of person, but if there are people out there that actually won't buy the game due to flaws they see in a trailer, then I feel sorry for them

At the part when the guy is assassinated in the tavern, I really don't think the people would react that quick.

Oh no, not at all. I am buying Skyrim day one I am definitely not one of those people who simply abandon a game due to something they don't agree with! And as I said, this is not a be all, end all for me. It's simply disappointing to notice recurring issues surfacing time and time again. I would expect better of a AAA title developer after all this time, is all I'm saying.

well i dont feel like reading your summary of the history of video game animations starting with pong. but still i think the animations from what i have seen are vastly improved when compared to those of any of the previous elder scrolls games

why are people calling it at a "pre-alpha" stage in development? It's alpha now. They have all the major features in place and are testing gameplay. I saw gameplay footage and a zillion lists of features.

Good point. That is why the argument about Bethesda having enough time to fix all of these issues that I've noticed, is a bit odd. They had all these issues on display during the official trailer.. so I wouldn't assume that they'd be overhauling major components of the architecture and mechanics right now.



You clearly have not read my post, then lol. What I had to say is not even close to what you have assumed. Which makes me wonder why you've posted at all, without actually referring to my arguments? But I do appreciate the fact that you're happy with the anims so far. To each his/her own, right? I, for one, tend to dissect what I see a little more than just taking things as face value and accepting them. I am also talking about the flaws in the game mechanics as well, not just the animations.

Okay, I've looked at the video, the exact frames you were mentioning and I've come to this conclusion:

Something is wrong with your eye, your monitor or your video player because I just couldn't see anything you've mentioned. Dragon flying unnaturally in two parts? Where? I haven't seen anything like that, that dragon was in one piece and he fluidly flew away. I saw no stale movement in the neck cutting scene at all. And the idle flame spell seem lifeless? The hell are you expecting, him snapping his finger in the meanwhile? You can easily see that those hands are actually moving, and who knows, there might be idle animation if you don't do anything for a while. There really wasn't anything unnatural in the spinning move part, the legs and the arms moved perfectly. The drawing sword scene is reminiscent of Oblivion's animation, except it's a lot more fluid.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about...

It's pre-alpha because they are still trying to add features such as mounts and spell crafting.

i was being sarcastic your post wasnt a post it was an entire essay :wacko: a tad bit long for essentially saying im not so sure about these animations. and posting some examples. that being said keep it simple and il read it i dont have all day to read a over sized forum post that could have just been explaned in a few sentences. but dont worry the animations will likely get a few tweeks before release

There will always be some people who think constructive criticism is the same as whining and complaining without reason, and they can get very defensive it you are critcizing something they love. Don't be bothered by those, it's fine.


Although I think the animations in the trailer are way better than anything we have seen in Oblivion, sure, there are some weak points.

# I think the walking animation is still a bit stiff (for example the woman in the scene with the windmill), but because they said there will be different walking animations, I'll reserve my judgement.

# The right guy in the 3rd person combat scene that features dual wielding looks a bit awkward when backpaddeling. He should try to block the attack, he has a shield for a reason.

# The wolf in the scene with the bow is floating too much. There is no real interaction between it and the ground.

# After the scene with the spider, when the dragon turns around, he is way too stiff. Especially the legs. It looks like he is just floating instead of flying.

# The last dragon, which you mentioned as well, has the same problem: The legs aren't moving one bit. That aside, I think the motion is actually pretty accurate.

# Hands in 1st person are anatomically incorrect.


Now, I also want to note some things I liked:

# The scene at the beginning where Dovahkiin is knocked back by the dragon, trying to regain his footing.

# The dragon breathing fire.

# The sneaking female's hips (lol).

# The reaction of the dragon when hit in the face.

# The snow troll: You can actually see his muscles flexing when he roars. IMO the best scene.

# The spider.

# Dovahkiin trying to catch his breath after striking the flying dragon.


Only by pointing out the good and the bad aspects, people will know how to improve things.

Looks fine to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdikR_mxp6I

The alpha phase is the first stage where software testing begins. pre alpha would be bare lines of code and design documents :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_development



Pre Alpha is everything BEFORE testing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_release#Alpha




BGS are testing their game. I saw it on the interwebz. True story.

you see OP this is how you get a point across with minimal space taken good job faulgor. and yeah that snow trolls muscles actually moved that was pretty much the greatest show of subtle animations ive seen from this series yet

I know what I'm talking about. Whether you choose to agree with me, is a different story. Everyone I've talked to in-person about this, as well as a friend of mine who is in school studying animation and 3d modeling, completely agreed with me. I am not delusional, contrary to what you may want to believe.

The dragon's flight animation at the end of the trailer. NOT two separate parts in the trailer. What I meant was that the animation/dragons skeleton looks as though it is comprised of 2 parts, and it is executed in a very painfully awkward way. There is nothing fluid about that flight animation that I can notice, so here, I will disagree with you, but appreciate your passion in defending your own view.

The throat-cut scene, at full speed, the animation is very rigid and not dynamic. It resembles that same Oblivion or Fallout vibe to a tee, and I have taken notice.

Idle hands are not stiff and arthritic. All I'm saying is that the position of the hand is extremely bizarre, and there should be more variation to how he is holding on to that spell. It looks like a mannequin, and resembles bad habits I've seen from TES time and time again. Refer to Bioshock plasmid animations for an excellent example of solid animators doing what they do best. After all, Bethesda has admitted to finding inspiration in Bioshock for their weapons/hand system, so why not try and go above and beyond what they did, instead of cheaply replicating a similar system?

The spinning move part, I noticed that the first time I saw it. His arms are bent in the strangest positions, and it doesn't flow properly. Not to mention what the other person looks like as he's slashing him with his sword.

I am not the only person to bring this up. Several of the press reviews on their preview of the demo last week mentioned very similar things, except not in as much depth as I did based on what I saw.

Personally, I feel that Morrowind was too "Clunky" whereas Oblivion was too "loose", if this makes sense.

I would really like to see a middle ground.

LOL. Sure, praise someone for short form notes when someone else may go into more detail about less. I write as a hobby. I enjoyed essays in school. I do not prefer to write short form aside from taking quick notes on a sketchpad. This is not a sketch pad.. I have a keyboard and limitless space to type. Sorry if you don't like reading as much as I like it. To each his own. Regardless, I still got my point across whether or not people chose to read what I had to say or not. I don't do point form. Don't want to read my entire post? Don't. No one is forcing you to. Sometimes less is more, and sometimes I like to explain things thoroughly to justify myself before people might take my short form notes and start picking them apart at face value.

But yes, that was a fantastic post, Faulgor. Nice representation of more pros and cons I have left out. I do realize that I should have went into more detail in terms of well-done animations I've seen.. but my post was apparently already too long for most people to comprehend or read through, so I suppose that would have been futile anyway.

This isn't the matter of opinion it's a matter of observation. For me it's like a debate whether or not the sky is really green.

And even if you're right, I don't know what you expect. These problems seem so minuscule, so unnoticeable that they shouldn't even matter.