Looks fine to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdikR_mxp6I

you see OP this is how you get a point across with minimal space taken good job faulgor. and yeah that snow trolls muscles actually moved that was pretty much the greatest show of subtle animations ive seen from this series yet

But yes, that was a fantastic post, Faulgor. Nice representation of more pros and cons I have left out. I do realize that I should have went into more detail in terms of well-done animations I've seen.. but my post was apparently already too long for most people to comprehend or read through, so I suppose that would have been futile anyway.

You referred to the dragon flight animation as one of the most poorly animated animals ever. How can you expect me to take this serious after reading that?

Nah, that's okay. I like to keep things short, but that is just a personal preference as well. Mainly to keep order in this chaos of my thoughts.
Mentioning things that are well-done is nice when you actually talk to the person whose work you are criticizing, which is rarely the case in this forum. Although I have to say that my criticizm of the hand's anatomy already reached the devs' ears, and they said we shouldn't worry because the game isn't done yet. Should give us hope that they will fix some other things mentioned in this thread.

LOL. Sure, praise someone for short form notes when someone else may go into more detail about less. I write as a hobby.

Oh yeah, I heard Spyro wasn't a linear game at all, it's a huge open world game and it's about 28 miles game size and you can do whatever you want...

Yeah, you can't compare the animations of games when they're completely different, Spyro was linear/not open world, so of course there's more time/focus on the animations.

It always felt open, to me. Running around and exploring the summer forest is one of my favorite hobbies... but that's irrelevant because the animators of any game are completely separate from the rest of the development team. A world designer is not going to animate figures. A graphics designer isn't going to create quests. Animators are animators and the past games have had crappy animations. I'm surprised Skyrim's are what they were, but the open-ended excuse doesn't cover up everything people like to think it does. Explain the mindblowing graphics (for their respective times) of Morrowind and Oblivion with all their open-endedness. I'll tell you. The graphics designers did their job exceptionally. Now why weren't the animators up to par? Morrowind's graphics were definitely better than Spyro 2's. Why weren't the animations? Must I also mentioned that Spyro 2 was a console game? Gaming PCs of Morrowind's era must have been far more capable than the 1994 hardware of a PS1... and they clearly were with the graphics. The animations were just garbage. Being open-ended has nothing to do with it. Oblivion's were only marginally better.

I read books as a hobby. But I don't want to read a novel on internet forums.

I will reserve judgement until I can get a good look at things. In the meantime, I think the animations and graphics are better than anything TES as made to date.

Oh yeah, absolutely. They are much better than what TES has had to offer in previous installments. I'm quite pleased with a lot of what I've seen. But by now, I think we're all expecting much more from Bethesda in contrast to the track record we've seen.

But that doesn't mean people won't, or shouldn't comment on noticing the awkward underbelly of mechanics that are still present after all this time.

However, I do appreciate your views in stating why you thought they looked much better. They do. In fact, I never once said that the Skyrim anims aren't worlds better than previous games. But to me, it still looks like the Oblivion or Morrowind mechanics are still present in its most fundamental ways.. and for me, this worries me.

its an open world game if you expected more with the technology that is available then you are being naive. remember they still want console players to play it. as they make up the bulk of sales

Depends what you mean by Oblivion or Morrowind mechanics. The animations probably do fundamentally work in the same way.

It's not like I can't foresee issues. I mean yeah perhaps IK foot rigs spaz on a steep incline, unless they use some havok behaviour magic and somehow set it up differently, or slap a modifier on the anim under that condition. Or blend a new walk/run for de/inclines. Yeah there's potential for terrain clipping, blending issues, whatever.

For the most part the animators look on the ball. I mean what else do you want? If there is an animation issue in any form, it's not like the animator doesn't know about it. The animation engine is changed. I know about F3 and Ob animations, how they work, how to make them, export them, blah blah. With HB there is a whole other way to allow animations to blend and modified that wasn't present before.

This is simply false. Being a console game catering to outdated hardware has nothing to do with the quality of the animations being crafted.

Several large games or game worlds demonstrate incredible animations. World designers and animators are separate entities within game development.

Look at Rage. Amazing animations so far. Even Mass Effect 2, for its dry cut scenes, still had more natural-looking animations than what Bethesda has on display in its trailer for Skyrim. Uncharted 2 was larger than Oblivion in terms of its world, and it had fantastic animations and game mechanics from what I've read and seen. (I don't own a console)

Bethesda is a team of over 100 people. Ensuring there is a well-balanced quality from its graphics, content, even to its mechanics.. is not asking for too much as a consumer paying $60 for entertainment products.

This is simply false. Being a console game catering to outdated hardware has nothing to do with the quality of the animations being crafted.

Several large games or game worlds demonstrate incredible animations. World designers and animators are separate entities within game development.

Look at Rage. Amazing animations so far. Even Mass Effect 2, for its dry cut scenes, still had more natural-looking animations than what Bethesda has on display in its trailer for Skyrim. Uncharted 2 was larger than Oblivion in terms of its world, and it had fantastic animations and game mechanics from what I've read and seen. (I don't own a console)

Bethesda is a team of over 100 people. Ensuring there is a well-balanced quality from its graphics, content, even to its mechanics.. is not asking for too much as a consumer paying $60 for entertainment products.

So you are comparing refined cutscene animation to AI-controlled animation now? :rolleyes:

I've got to say, the two major excuses for disliked things on these forums (it's open-ended and it's a console game) don't really have all this much substance to them and just get irritating after a while. While keeping in mind that I do like Skyrim's animations, I have most certainly seen better ones... and in open-ended games... and on my PS3 (which is, as far as I know, a console). Playing an Uncharted 2 demo definitely showed off fantastic animations and, even though being open-ended really doesn't have as much to do with animations as people think, other open-ended games on my PS3 have also had better animations (take the Assassin's Creed series, for example, or, from what I've heard, Red Dead Redemption's... whose horses are still widely credited as being the most fluidly animated horses in any video game to date, despite being on consoles and being open-ended).

This is simply false. Being a console game catering to outdated hardware has nothing to do with the quality of the animations being crafted.

Actually it kinda does. A bit. Animations are kinda mid expensive. Build a scene with just statics. See how many million tri you can fit into the scene. Now do that with animated characters. Notice you probably cannot drive a million poly scene of animated characters. Maybe just about these days, I'm not sure actually, there is some sick hardware out there now. On a super PC maybe. Xbox surely not happening.

And as soon as you want cool animation effects like cloth, the rigs can get pretty hardcoe. So hardware is in fact currently a limitation on some things concerning animation.

If you are only talking within the realm of SK's design, which is probably designed to be something like max 20 characters in complex scenes at any one time on screen. then they have the limitation set in the game design, (which xbox is the primary platform) and basically that choice is made with the hardware limitations in mind. The whole game design is limited to hardware constraints! I can tell you right now if you let the programmers, designers, and asset creators go mad they wouldn't be doing the things they are.

And further, even with those 20 characters on screen at a time, each character is going to be optimised game assets, much like we've commonly seen in current gen games, and that means animations, skeletons, and perhaps modifiers will see a conservative use. probably no one is wasting bones on the character rig for realistic hair movement in pig tails and beards. And there's no physiqued hair. If you ask me its because they have to keep a rein on resources where ever possible. Why are my tri counts and texture sheet limitations so low. it's all basically down to worrying about target hardware.

Oh, I completely agree with everything you've said here. I just don't think that creating more fluid animations with a step up in terms of mechanics is going to be as taxing as we all think it is. Bethesda has been animating and programming the same way for years now. It's time to step it up a bit.

You'll notice several awkward motions in 3rd person combat when they actually pick the framerate apart, rewind it, or slow it down in general. One example I find always bothering me is when the character is seen from his side, slashing an enemy with his sword whilst doing a spin move. @7:50 minutes into the Rewind Theater video I have linked, they slow it down quite nicely so you are able to see each phase of the animation. In almost every frame that it is paused during this spin move, the main character's limbs are bent far beyond natural possibility, his shoulders remain stiff, and his lower neck to the point of his shoulder blades is somehow pushed forward as though it's a separate joint. This is not the way humans move. It appears as though the animators are still creating strange Oblivion-style movements within this new engine.

I used to do this move a lot in real life, and believe it or not, this looks REALLY natural. That's about the way I do it. and YES, legs DO bend a lot, and yes, you DO NOT bend your shoulders when you plan on doing that move afterwards, as you would end up wasting force during the blow to move your shoulders back in place (which doesn't give you a lot of strenght anyways, so a movement from the shoulders is wasted)


Fighting the frost troll @6:34-ish, the idle left hand with the flame spell is very lifeless, stiff and awkwardly configured. This very same thing is shown in the newly-leaked 5 second clip of the demo that was shown to the press. The fire itself inside the hand is dynamic, and yet your hands are displayed at the most unusual angles and in the most uncomfortable of positions while a ball of fire is wreathed inside your palm. If they are going for that Bioshock-esque feel for spells like it was done with plasmids, they should at least create more variation in terms of idle animations. No one runs around with both their hands and arms folded up near their chest, facing each other, in such a sterile way. People are not made of clay. For a great test of this to see what I mean, place both your hands near your chest in the way you see in the screenshots, and experience how truly uncomfortable and bizarre it feels to behave in such a way. It sounds funny, but to really critique what we're seeing, we need to let go of all our hype for a moment to really understand what's on screen. The game may look gorgeous, and we're overwhelmingly anxious to play it, but I think a lot of us aren't criticizing it or comparing it apples to apples like we should be. Bethesda is boasting about their new Creating Engine.. but to me, it still looks eerily close to Oblivion in terms of mechanics.

Well, the only thing that doesn't look natural in there is the angle of the fingers. As for the rest, EVERY first person game had this kind of view, it must be for a reason, huh?

Another great example, @6:40 or so, the scene where your character slices an unsuspecting person's throat from behind. Pay close attention to the stale movements the character demonstrates very quickly while standing up. It's too rigid of a movement, and doesn't flow properly like a human being would demonstrate. When they slow it down, you can see the individual phases once again, which make it appear smoother, but at full speed it looks incredibly awkward and unnatural. Not to mention the completely oblivious and dumbfounded bystanders that are in the room with you when you do this, which the narrators joke about. (Oblivious Oblivion AI, anyone?)

1st - No one reacts AS SOON as they see something unless they were ESPECIALLY looking for it. And as for the animation, well, he IS in a crowded area, so he got up real fast. and if you can't get up that fast, I think your legs migt be a bit weak... (it's easy to do, really)

@7:38, you see a staff shooting a ball of light down a corridor in a cave. While we're all meant to look at the lighting effects displayed on the walls, we're being distracted from the incredibly awkward manner you are holding the staff itself. Try holding an object like that, a broom for instance, and realize how strange it is to hold and thrust things the way it is shown in 1st person during the video. It's as though several animations have been crafted anxiously without the aid or assistance with motion capture or real life reference.

You must have really tight joints in the wrist, I can hold stuff that way with no problem. Also remember, he's not stabbing, he's aiming. he needs to point where the spell's gonna hit

@8:03, your character draws his sword. Pay attention to how robotic the animation looks, and where he holds his sword as if he was hip-firing an AK47 in Counter-Strike. Watch his left arm move into position in a defense stance as if it were made of cement. This is simply poor animation, and quite honestly, I know people who after a year or so in school learning animation techniques that were able to develop more fluid, natural movements in a digital environment.

Well, he wanted to get it out of its sheath fast. You wouldn't take your time in such a situation, would you? And to be honest... I prefer animations like those, where it looks simple. As for the defensive position... well, there are COUNTLESS sword fighting styles, and each of them has their own defensive stance. This one reminds me of some chinese style in which the sword is held pretty much at the waist level, and the hand in front, but not sticking out too much, in order to allow for more swift manoeuvers.

@8:25, the finishing move is shown when you grab onto a bandit's shoulder and thrust your sword into his stomach. Again, incredibly awkward. Position your own arms into the last frame when the sword is thrusted and the narrators pause to talk about the scene. It is one of the most uncomfortable arm positions I've seen.

The left hand is positionned to pull the guy's shoulder, so it is placed in a way it won't slip. As for comfort... well fighting ISN'T comfortable, and besides, he's not gonna stay like that for half an hour. probably only a second and then let go

But, the absolute worst animation I've seen so far from the trailer, is of the dragon taking flight after he jumps off the temple @10:13. It's as though the dragon is comprised of 2 halves, one front half, one rear half, and the animator simply squeezed the 2 sections of his body together while moving his wings up and down in one of the most unnatural, painful, and abnormal attempts to animate an animal I've ever seen on screen. Now obviously dragons don't exist, so it'd be incredibly challenging to properly animate one without reference, but this is just unacceptable in my eyes. It is things like this, that now after all their latest releases displaying poor game mechanics, I will no longer be able to ignore.

What did you expect out of a dragon flying, seriously? It looks VERY natural to me. The movements are synchronized, and it looks like it's using its own body's weight to help itself fly

Hi all,

I just wanted to start a thread concerning the level of quality we've seen from the animations so far, and also to share a few things I've noticed with all of you that are truly worrying me at this point. [... Skipping enormous wall of text ...]

If there aren't any diagonal walking animations, then i'll have to agree with you, but so far it looks awesome man, the footage we've seen so far is mind bending! Idk how you're able to bash the animations in the trailer. They're really well done. If they turn out to be as bad as you say, i'll buy skyrim either way.

you compared mass effect and elder scrolls 2 different genres in my eyes your argument lost all credibility at that moment. but still i like what i have seen in the skyrim trailer

@ofnir123, well obviously your mind is made up. I am not the only person criticizing this. Several members of the press who were involved in the demo preview mentioned similar mechanical and animation flaws. To each his own. I'm sure once the game is released a lot of what I am saying will bubble to the surface and critics will share a similar view.

I wasn't saying you're completely wrong either. It's just that it shames me that some perfectly good looking animations get a bad note, because they look too "stiff" or even as far as "not artistic enough" (relating to some other thing I rad the other day). Hell, humans rarely do everything smoothly. So why should everything a human does in a game have to look smooth? and seriously, for the dragon, I really don't get it. it looks awesome, wtf