[Daniel Brown]

The transformation of Sheogorath to Jygallag and the elevation of the PC to being a Deadric Prince has already been the center of much discussion. However there have always been some aspects that have bothered me about it.

First is the assumption that Sheo and Jyg are opposites, indeed that madness and order are mutually exclusive. But they are not. A very common mental disorder here in the real world is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which can be very severe to the point of as disabilitating as any other form of madness. And OCD is the desire for everything in life to be perfectly ordered. Trying to order an imperfect world is just as insane, if not more so than babbling on about cheese. Thus Sheo and Jyg are not opposites.

The second is the fact that we are believing the Daedra of madness that he is not insane. The most dangerous maniacs in history have been the ones that believe that they are sane. Charles Manson, a man that most of the world believe is a complete psychopath, still insists that he is completely sane, and that his delusions are the truth. But the minute the Prince of Madness says he is not insane, we believe him, thinking he is cured.

The whole concept of Jygallag is fundementally insane as well. Jyggalyg's primary purpose is to strive for complete order. But his very existance is as a being that was born through the conflict and instability of Anu and Padomay makes his very existance contrary to his own purpose. For complete order to exist, only Anu may exist, and the existance of Jyg is proof that complete order is impossible in this universe. And his belief that he can order it is just a delusion on a grand scale.

Thus I will go on a limb and propose a theory that says that Jyg is just another figment of Sheo's fevered mind. The Greymarch is as we know an act of self-destruction, which is an act of insanity. Jyg's goal for perfect order can easily be seen as insane, even lining up with a known mental illness. And his feelings of grandeur and him self-defeated purpose are delusions to a grand scale. Who is to say that Jyg is not just another personaliy of Sheo that believes he is seperate. And that would make the PC just another mortal svcked up into the Prince's madness, and lines the PC more with Arden Sul.

[danni Marchant]

Jyg existed in the Mythic Era; when time started, he became Sheog. Exactness became Uncertainty.

I feel Jyg is very real, and the fact that he is Sheog's opposite (Exactness), it holds water. And why is it so hard to accept a mortal being Sheog? Mortal Uncertainty is the basis of Sheog's existence, both figuratively and literally.

[Anthony Diaz]

Jyg existed in the Mythic Era; when time started, he became Sheor. Exactness became Uncertainty.

Do we have any actual proof of this outside the Shivering Isles? All we really have is Jyg's word.

I feel Jyg is very real, and the fact that he is Sheor's opposite (Exactness), it holds water. And why is it so hard to accept a mortal being Sheor? Mortal Uncertainty is the basis of Sheor's existence, both figuratively and literally.

I will repeat. Madness is not uncertainty, it is not chaos. Many madmen and very certain of their beliefs. And OCD again is one of the most common mental illnesses, and it is the desires of exact routine with an exact world. And Mortal Uncertainty is pretty much the reason all the the Daedra and Aedra exist as they do. Their spheres would be nothing without the mortal interpretations.

[Marlo Stanfield]

Eh, I made the "mortal Uncertainty" statement in reference to the fact that Sheog wasn't created until Shor died; his death creates both the Mundus and the "Sithis-shaped hole" in the Aurbis. This hole is Sheogorath, the Prince of Madness (Uncertainty).

Chaos isn't Uncertainty, indeed (not completely). Madness is. Randomness is. Life itself is uncertain; you can't TRULY know what is going to happen "next."

Concerning Jyg, think about it: because Time and Space, the basis of existence, didn't exist yet, everything is "certain" because things can't technically "happen." This can be a reason why people said Jyg was the strongest Daedra.

[Antony Holdsworth]

Eh, I made the "mortal Uncertainty" statement in reference to the fact that Sheor wasn't created until Shor died; his death creates both the Mundus and the "Sithis-shaped hole" in the Aurbis. This hole is Sheogorath, the Prince of Madness (Uncertainty).

But in SI, Sheogorath (or was it Jyg?) says the other Daedra Princes "created" Sheogorath -- that is, turning Jyg into a mad being for some set amount of time.

Or, is it that there already was a Sheogorath, and the Daedra lords bound Jyg to Sheo (manipulating/tricking spheres?) Wow, split personality? More like Sheo got another Daedric Lord grafted onto him or something...

Then again, maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about...

[Lady Shocka]

First is the assumption that Sheo and Jyg are opposites, indeed that madness and order are mutually exclusive. But they are not. A very common mental disorder here in the real world is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which can be very severe to the point of as disabilitating as any other form of madness. And OCD is the desire for everything in life to be perfectly ordered. Trying to order an imperfect world is just as insane, if not more so than babbling on about cheese. Thus Sheo and Jyg are not opposites.

Well, having an older brother who has suffered from sever OCD, I can say you are wrong about that. OCD is not a desire to create perfect order. Also, that doesn't make them insane, and I find that rather insulting. As an example, my brother was well aware of what he was doing. As my brother once said to me, it is like bieng a prisoner to your own mind.

[Carolyne Bolt]

But in SI, Sheogorath (or was it Jyg?) says the other Daedra Princes "created" Sheogorath -- that is, turning Jyg into a mad being for some set amount of time.

Or, is it that there already was a Sheogorath, and the Daedra lords bound Jyg to Sheo (manipulating/tricking spheres?) Wow, split personality? More like Sheo got another Daedric Lord grafted onto him or something...

Then again, maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about...

People also say that Tiber Septim is Talos, but that's both far from the truth and extremely true.

[Rik Douglas]

Read this, especially Jyg's little speech: http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/si15.shtml

[Russell Davies]

Read this, especially Jyg's little speech: http://www.imperial-library.info/tsoo/si15.shtml

Yes, but That is just Jyg's own words, as countless others have said before me, he could be lying.

[Margarita Diaz]

Posts edited/deleted. Let's stick to the topic and cut the niggling please.

[Robert Bindley]

Yes, but That is just Jyg's own words, as countless others have said before me, he could be lying.

think about it this way. Jyg's sphere is Order.

Lying is a very chaotic thing, and it wouldn't be something Order would do... Think Knights....

[Greg Swan]

The transformation of Sheogorath to Jygallag and the elevation of the PC to being a Deadric Prince has already been the center of much discussion. However there have always been some aspects that have bothered me about it.

First is the assumption that Sheo and Jyg are opposites, indeed that madness and order are mutually exclusive. But they are not. A very common mental disorder here in the real world is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, which can be very severe to the point of as disabilitating as any other form of madness. And OCD is the desire for everything in life to be perfectly ordered. Trying to order an imperfect world is just as insane, if not more so than babbling on about cheese. Thus Sheo and Jyg are not opposites.

The second is the fact that we are believing the Daedra of madness that he is not insane. The most dangerous maniacs in history have been the ones that believe that they are sane. Charles Manson, a man that most of the world believe is a complete psychopath, still insists that he is completely sane, and that his delusions are the truth. But the minute the Prince of Madness says he is not insane, we believe him, thinking he is cured.

The whole concept of Jygallag is fundementally insane as well. Jyggalyg's primary purpose is to strive for complete order. But his very existance is as a being that was born through the conflict and instability of Anu and Padomay makes his very existance contrary to his own purpose. For complete order to exist, only Anu may exist, and the existance of Jyg is proof that complete order is impossible in this universe. And his belief that he can order it is just a delusion on a grand scale.

Bingo

Thus I will go on a limb and propose a theory that says that Jyg is just another figment of Sheo's fevered mind. The Greymarch is as we know an act of self-destruction, which is an act of insanity. Jyg's goal for perfect order can easily be seen as insane, even lining up with a known mental illness. And his feelings of grandeur and him self-defeated purpose are delusions to a grand scale. Who is to say that Jyg is not just another personaliy of Sheo that believes he is seperate. And that would make the PC just another mortal svcked up into the Prince's madness, and lines the PC more with Arden Sul.

Ehhh...not so Bingo. Try to re-evaluate your theory a little.

I'll give you a word bank: Mundus, antithesis, imperfection

All the Padomayics are not 100% chaotic and not all Anuic beings are 100% orderly

[Britney Lopez]

think about it this way. Jyg's sphere is Order.

Lying is a very chaotic thing, and it wouldn't be something Order would do... Think Knights....

We only have his word for that, you know. And what if he believes his lie?

[Gaelle Courant]

We only have his word for that, you know. And what if he believes his lie?

...No, we don't just have his word for that. Is anyone reading my post??

Cliff notes: Jyg (Order) exists in the Mythic era 'cause Uncertainty (Time and Space combined, i.e., Existence) doesn't exist. The creation of the Mundus = Uncertainty (Sheog).

I hope people will now read my posts...

[Ray]

Jygallag is the embodiment of the realm of order, he is the realm, so if he can make it as ordered as he wants.


Have you seen the show Monk? btw

[Alyesha Neufeld]

Well, having an older brother who has suffered from sever OCD, I can say you are wrong about that. OCD is not a desire to create perfect order. Also, that doesn't make them insane, and I find that rather insulting. As an example, my brother was well aware of what he was doing. As my brother once said to me, it is like bieng a prisoner to your own mind.

I'm sorry if I insulted him, but it is a mental condition. Insanity really is an insulting term for all sorts of mental illnesses it encompasses. We had a family friend who had severe manic-depression to the point of shizophrenia, and he was aware of that. I would hesitate to call him insane, but his mental illness did make it hard for him to function within society, but he was a very nice and intellegent person. That might be why most light-hearted entertainment don't touch on the true nature of mental illness and madness, because many people have some connection to it, and would be offended. That may be why we had a Prince of Madness that had no real form of mental illness, just random sayings. I came up with this because I recently learned that one of my friends has a mild case of OCD, and it made it hard for her to function sometimes.

Ehhh...not so Bingo. Try to re-evaluate your theory a little.

I'll give you a word bank: Mundus, antithesis, imperfection

All the Padomayics are not 100% chaotic and not all Anuic beings are 100% orderly

I'll think about this for a while, and come up with a revised theory tomorrow. Thank you for the hints, Mortazo.

[Josee Leach]

Jyg is manifestation of Sheos schizophrenia and hid accusation of other deadra for cursing him is manifestation of his paranoia.
btw: order is madness

[Gemma Woods Illustration]

Sheo and Jygg were alternates of each other, In a way, you might say that by being an alternate personality, Sheo was the perfect embodiement of Madness.
But listen to this. Since they were one and the same, the realm really did belong to Jyggalag. Sheogorath was sort of just a usurper, or at best a stewart. However, since you came along, Sheo and Jygg are now two seperate beings, with Sheogorath in control of the Shivering Isles. So what will happen to Jyggalag now?

[Verity Hurding]

Sit still for a minute and try to imagine Jygallag lying. You can't. He's the "Boring Daedric Prince of Boring."

[Lexy Corpsey]

Call me a [censored], but I'm still having difficulty accepting the fact that Sheog and Jyg are TRULY separated.

[Len swann]

--Removed

[Cassie Boyle]

Call me a [censored], but I'm still having difficulty accepting the fact that Sheog and Jyg are TRULY separated.

There not,?
* Sheog become Jyg, or more exactly Jyg escaped from Sheog.?
* You take over for Sheog and are/will become him.?
* Thus as is, it has been and you are Sheog and Sheog is you and it has been that way.?
* Thus it mad logic conclude the Jgy escaped from you who is Sheog.

[JAY]

if ou want to beleive that sheog and Jyg are similair, think of sheog having three parts, Mania, Demetia and Control. Having order in everything is a type of controlling, and people with bad controlling issues can often become like that from mental disorders. (Note: Im not talking about people who just LIKE things a certain way, but people who HAVE to have it a certain way, OCD etc.)

So in a way, like the isles are sperated into two parts, you seperate sheog into his third part.


thats my two cents, not lore based at all.

[W E I R D]

Call me a [censored], but I'm still having difficulty accepting the fact that Sheog and Jyg are TRULY separated.

So don't accept it.