Any way to kill a deadric prince? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:19 am

Of course they haven't been shown to be killable after the point where they were rendered unkillable, which is why I suggest the way to kill them is to remove the mechanism that makes them unkillable (since them being unkillable only applies to this post-stabilization context). There were things like them before the advent of time, and those things died. The only difference between the Daedra and those things that died is that the former is what we call them when the universe reached the point that they were no longer dying. Reverse that state and the daedra will become what they were before, ideas ebbing and flowing and fading away, dying.

But is that possible? Can the stabilization be reversed? I think that's up in the air. The Time Dragon has never really been killed (he was kinda-sorta killed when the mundus was formed, but were you really killed if you're still alive?), so we can't know for sure if it's possible to kill him.

Perhaps we'd best do with another source:
"These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been. One idea, however, became jealous and did not want to die; like the stasis, he wanted to last.--Sithis

"For ages the etada grew and shaped and destroyed each other and destroyed each other’s creations.... Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity."--Vehk's TeachingsNote, the bit from Vehk's Teachings is after Akatosh is already on the scene. With these two texts we're offered two different types of 'death'. One of them is a 'return to the flux', where 'death' results in a loss of identity (in like form as the dreamsleeve), things die in the ebbing and flowing and fading away. The presence of Time puts a stop to this. But then even after the presence of time, there are still etada destroying each other - so, they can still die.

To me, this seems much more straight forward than you appear to think. According to Vehk, Et'Ada could die after Time but before Mundus. It seems that all you'd need to do to kill a Daedra is un-make the mundus. Destroying eachother seems like a straight-forward synonym for death, not a reference to destroying just an identity (like what happens in the dreamsleeve)

(and really, that makes one wonder, why would the creation of Mundus cause those not involved in it's creation to be no longer destructible?)

Perhaps that aspect of its design is how Lorkhan got some of the Aedra to sign up for the project?

On a random note, the term "et'ada" seems rather poorly defined, and there is conflict even within unified texts as to what it refers to. Vehk's Teachings and the intro to the Monomyth posit all spirits before the creation of Mundus as Et'ada; however, the "Myth of Aurbis" and the "Altmeri Heart of the World" attribute the term only to those who created the world:

The only thing I might posit regarding it is that Akatosh/Auriel is decidedly not an et'ada, especially in the Altmeri/Vehkian scheme of things. In the broadest definition, the etada are the beings who were spawned in the flux; Auriel, on the other hand, is what allows the et'ada to form:

"Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns."--Vehk's Teachings

Similarly in the 'Altmeri Heart of the World', Auriel is created by Anuiel, and after Auriel's creation the etada begin to spring forth. Auriel is unique amongst the spirits (as it Lorkhan arguably).

Huh. I guess I had been taking the translation (original spirits) at face value. I should have known better.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:33 am

What about an elder scroll could do it.

Not likely- the Elder Scrolls aren't something mystical that can magically unmake something like a Daedric Prince. At least, not without it being anything remotely easy.

First, you'd need to READ it (which will eventually cause blindness, and usually require years of study to even get a brief understanding) then you'd need to find the scroll that may or may not have the prophecy that "destroys" a Daedric Prince (since everything is in flux, the specific prophecy for a scroll can change depending on who views it.) Then, you'd need to somehow force the prophecy you have seen come to pass, while avoiding the machinations of the Daedric Prince you're trying to kill off. Finally, if you do manage to kill off the Daedric Prince, you'd kill off it's sphere of influence, most likely, or become the new Daedric Prince of "X." If you've killed off the sphere of influence, it's likely to have effected EVERYTHING in time, causing the whole of history to shift and twist into an unrecognizable new one.

For instance, if you kill of Azura, at the very least Tamriel would likely be conqured by Dagoth Ur or a similar figure, not to mention there'd be no such thing as "Dunmer". Without Meridia, undead would likely be far more common than they are now. Without Clavicus Vile, there'd be no reason for anyone to really do ANYTHING, since "aspiration" doesn't exist. Without Jygglag/Sheogorath, Order or Madness wouldn't exist, causing everything to constantly shift or remain eternally static.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:03 am

I remember reading in the library somewhere that if you managed to kill a Daedric Prince on its plane of oblivion then you would send its soul to wander the void for the rest of eternity. Sounds like death to me.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:03 am

Well, that's the thing about the Elder Scrolls. They're prohibitively difficult to obtain and use, but they can do literally anything. They could kill a Prince. They could make it so it never existed.

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:28 pm

*surprised nobody has mentioned Azura and Muatra*

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:28 am

That wasn't Azura.

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:51 pm

That wasn't Azura.

Yeah, I know, but I'm still surprised nobody mentioned it. It's a quite memorable scene, after all.

"Azura chokes!"

Somewhat tangentally, is it possible to have a sort of "daedra-break"? Like a Dragon-Break, but with a Daedric Prince?

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:15 pm

The Dragon Break is special because the Dragon is Time itself. If Hircine or Mehrunes or Sheogorath gets confused, nothing of particular note is likely to happen.

That said, it might hypothetically be possible. How would it happen? The Dragon Break is when someone with root access tries to change history in a way that's not allowed. Fracturing the timeline causes Akatosh to break down. What would cause a Daedric Prince to splinter? Or one of the other Aedra for that matter?

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:47 am

I always say anything can die and I known deadric princes can kill other deadric princes but is the any other way they can be killed

Remove that which they are from everything. They will then cease to exist till that concept exists.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:41 am

Remove that which they are from everything. They will then cease to exist till that concept exists.

Which would make Daedric princes near impossible to kill unless you destroy Mundus it self. Which would just return everything to a pre-(post)-dawn state...

Wait, those vamps in dawnguard want to block out the sun, this will stop dusk & dawn, so maybe they're trying to kill Azura

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:38 pm

I'm okay with that.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:58 am

The closest thing to killing a Daedric Prince is banishment

This. Daedra gods are gods. Even killing lesser daedras seems just a way to return them to whoever realm they serve, like in oblivion those who died probably returned to Daegon's realm. That's the most logical thing to me. Banishment to whoever realm they serve.
The possibility that some guys gave like, destroying the universe, doesn't seem possible even for the 9 divines. It doesn't make sense to me. I mean in the books Umbriel tried to kill Clavicus and he only made him weaker. He is still unkillable even in Tamriel

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:34 am

This. Daedra gods are gods. Even killing lesser daedras seems just a way to return them to whoever realm they serve, like in oblivion those who died probably returned to Daegon's realm. That's the most logical thing to me. Banishment to whoever realm they serve.
The possibility that some guys gave like, destroying the universe, doesn't seem possible even for the 9 divines. It doesn't make sense to me. I mean in the books Umbriel tried to kill Clavicus and he only made him weaker. He is still unkillable even in Tamriel

Yet we know of previous Kalpas, Alduin has destroyed Mundus several times before and will probably do several times more later on.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:24 am

I don't think Alduin destroys Mundas in the sense of complete annihilation, but rather he literally eats Mundas, scrambles it up while digesting it, and then poops out a new Mundas. He doesn't destroy Mundas, he just wrecks it and rearranges it into something barely recognizable.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:37 am

I prefer to think that he vomits out the matter. Much classier.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:49 am

Nah, I believe blai5000 is very much correct in this matter, which makes all the implications all the very much better.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:57 am

Depends, can you kill the idea of revolution? Or the idea of stasis? Or the idea of control? To kill a Daedric Prince would be the same as killing an Aedra, you would have to remove all possibility of the idea of the Prince from ever possibly existing. Which is impossible, because their existance is forever written within the Elder Scrolls. Even if you went back in time and prevented a Prince from ever existing, the Elder Scrolls would still have recorded it, and the idea of that Prince would be forever and eternal.

Doesn't that make the whole Thalmor agenda kinda, you know, useless? Since the apotheosis of Talos should indeed be written in the Elder Scrolls?

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:02 am

Doesn't that make the whole Thalmor agenda kinda, you know, useless? Since the apotheosis of Talos should indeed be written in the Elder Scrolls?

Admittedly, I left out the bit where the Scroll needs to be read.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:18 am

Is Amaranth subgradience? I understood it to be absolute supergradience, to surpass the One before even the Two of Anu and Padhome.

Imma be a [censored]. It's when someone stops writing TES fanfiction and makes their own fantasy. Ergo, I have Amaranth. Have fun with that.

But since I don't hold with the "the player has CHIM" and "CHIM is the construction set" deal, I'd say nevermind that because you can't have one of those without the other.

» Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:43 pm

Doesn't that make the whole Thalmor agenda kinda, you know, useless? Since the apotheosis of Talos should indeed be written in the Elder Scrolls?

Not really if they destroy Talos and the possibility of Talos and then men and the possibility of men then Talos who is just Lorkhan won't return in the next Kalpa, which means there won't really be a new Kalpa as there won't be a new Mundus.

» Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:22 am

You... shoot flaming elder scrolls out of a bazooka?