Shot down? No. There was an argument for money, which I chose to not take part in since there's nowhere to go with that by us here but vauge statements about what's what worth monetarily. We don't know anything about where all Bethesda is ready to spend other than what has been shown (including the "optional" minecraft knockoff and a phone game), nor how much.

You said 'so' when I said not many people play hardcoe, then someone chipped in it would be a waste of time and money to implement this feature. Shot down.

Hah. Ok buddy.

Most of the time I don't know what I'm talking about so don't take what I say to heart.

Not taken.

Wise. I'm an idiot so don't listen to me.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Development_Team


http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Development_Team

Basicaly they went from 30 to about 100 people.
They went from the 70 ish man Fallout team to rougly 100. So basicaly another 1,000,000 used per year al least in payroll expense alone.
They also aparently invested faily massively in voice acting, and because they aparently do not have a ridiculously complex civil war to try and work in hopefully this time they had time to actualy work on everything else.

Yep, those pesky 'fair wage' laws are just bankrupting poor Bethesda. Let me fetch my violin because they have to pay their employees.

More on point: They probably won't have a hardcoe mode in the vanilla game. It's not that big of a deal. That's something that modders will have fixed in weeks. So long as Bethesda does a good job on the things modders can't fix for them (voice acting, world design) I'll be happy as a clam. The sad truth is that Fallout Wanderer's Edition for Fallout 3 was far and away better than the half-ass "hardcoe" mode for New Vegas, anyway.

The funny thing is, 100ish people is still actually pretty small for a AAA dev team, especially for making games as large as Skyrim. Does anyone know the numbers for dev teams like Bungie or Rockstar? Just the developers, not the marketing and other departments.

Ubisoft would be a pretty good example. They have dozens of studios across the world working on a single game, mainly the AC series (probably explains why it has been gutted so badly).

Ah, here we go: 900 people worked on http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Assassin-Creed-4-Had-Over-900-People-Working-Game-59948.html.

My view on this is if you're going to give the player the power to build a home with the ability to grow crops to make into food and put water taps in -- why in the heck wouldn't they add a feature or gameplay mechanic to take advantage of this. Seems pointless to go through the trouble of adding that without putting in a mode or other option that would give you meaningful uses for those things. Again I don't know why they are being so tongue in cheek about that one issue as they have come out with so much more at E3 seems a bit odd why they aren't giving us the full scoop on it.

I understand why some people are arguing why it might not be in the game, but if it's not in the game I hope that the devs just decide to add features like staying hydrated, eating and minor things as that into the game. If you don't drink or eat you lose some AP or something of that nature. I wouldn't mind that and I think it would be such a minor inconvenience to gamers who just want to plug and play. I don't know how time consuming it would be to add this feature, but I think it enhances the idea of a wasteland theme to survive and make a living in a harsh environment. It adds to the overall immersion as do the graphics the guns and power armor which can be customized.

I don't think it would be feasible to make a separate mode that offered wholesale changes, but I do feel it can be done if little things that made the game fit more into the lore of the game.

I'm a software developer. It would not cost 'millions' of dollars to implement this; they could have a single developer do it over a years time and have a solid product at the end of it and that'd only cost somewhere between $100k and $200k (taking into account overhead costs for the developer). It's certainly not something that would need a team of ten people to work on full time for a full year - which is what it'd take to cost $2 million or more.

(now, realistically it'd be multiple people over a shorter period of time required to implement a solid hardcoe mode, but you get the point)

That said, it does depend upon what you expect the hardcoe mode to include. What I've discussed is something that would be in-line with Fallout New Vegas's hardcoe mode, with maybe the addition of it taking time to construct settlements rather than it happening instantly. I can't think of any hardcoe mode features that'd cost the company multiple millions of dollars to implement.

Why add cooking pots all over Skyrim if you aren't going to implement at least a basic "needs" system including hunger/thirst? Why add the various crafting stations such as grinding wheels / workbenches / forges all over Skyrim if you aren't going to use them to add in some form of weapon and armor repair / degradation in addition to upgrades?

Sometimes they add things for coolness factors, sometimes they add things but leave them half done or not fully realized in terms of what they could have done or some gameplay system they could have created with said creation. I'd love to see some form of hardcoe mode / basic needs / survival system implemented but I wouldn't take what we've seen to this point as a solid indication that such ideas are included in the base game we'll get based on the very recent history of Bethesda as we have in the form of Skyrim.

If it's not incorporated in the vanilla game, I'm sure there will be a number of mods adding this feature.

Even if it is included, I imagine a mod will still be necessary to make the consequences more interesting, as was the case with vanilla New Vegas hardcoe mode compared to Arwen's NV Realism or similar mods.

The trouble with mods fixing it, is that mods often add extra scripts on top of a game engine that isn't the most stable to begin with.

They also rarely stick to a standard, you end up with needs mods that only cover half the food because someone else added different food or changed levelled lists, or mods that that are unnecessarily complicated, or unnecessarily harsh, etc....

Then they go out of date as modders move on and the game is patched....

I love mods, but they are not the solution to everything, vanilla ingame support for stuff would give the modders a head start too, easier to change something than to add it from scratch.

For example, weightless ammo bothers me, I don't like it, I wanted to add arrow weight to skyrim but they had removed the weight stat for ammo in the creation kit. The mods that added arrow weight were all extra scripts you had to run, often on top of a load of other scripts for other mods.

Same with ammo weight in fallout 3 I seem to remember, whereas NVs hardcoe mode had an ammo weight stat, altering to your liking was a simple 2 minute job

I'd love to see this as an optional feature which can be toggled on/off. This way, immersion and achievement gamers can play the way they want without inconveniencing either gamer.

As an immersion gamer, my ideal of FO4's vanilla needs system would be combo of PN or Imp's More Complex needs + the Toilet Paper mod (let's you do #1, #2 AND bathe because your PC gets dirty) + Imp's PPA mod now that we're getting vanilla weather + some variant of a health/need mod (like the Battlefield & Injury mod for Skyrim). An integrated needs mod like that would put me in Nirvana

hardcoe mode was very popular in Fallout New Vegas.

It would be fairly trivial to put in since it is already in FONV.

I just don't see Bethesda ignoring a large and vocal minority of their fan base after putting so many other major Fallout wishlist items in.

And now a days you really need a way to fine tune the difficulty level that doesn't including just upping the hit points and the damage level of the opposition.

Some of the faulty logic in this thread is kinda painful to read. Some people said that only a fraction of users use hardcoe, and thus it isn't needed. Well, if you look at the Steam stats only 10% of players ever dealt more than 10,000 damage with melee weapons. Only 6% of players did the same with unarmed. Only 1% of players won 30 games of Caravan or picked 50 pockets.Does that make them useless? Not at all. Having more mechanics increases the depth and lifespan of a game. I would never want Bethesda to get rid of a feature that people enjoyed (and which has great potential to be expanded upon).

None of Bethesda's games alter hit points. They affect damage done and damage taken only.

Sorry played mostly with Project Nevada (and a lot of other mods) which can alter hit points.

But the point remains, if they are all about Player Choice which so far they have been making a very good case for, then why wouldn't they includes ways to keep the game challenging?

Allowing the player to altering radiation exposure, loot level, ammo availability, and adding in a starvation and dehydration mechanics would be easy and let the player fine tune the challenge.

And since they have to be able to adjust these any way when they balance the game, all you are really doing is moving them to an ini config file that the player can adjust.

Thanks for sharing that! I don't follow any news about Fallout 4 on Twitter so that has me pumped!

Agreed.

Fallout 4 definitely has changes for the best. A good example is grenades. In previous Fallout games, you had to actually switch to the grenade to use it, which was a hassle. It worked much better in Fallout and Fallout 2 because the game felt more like a board game in the sense you had turns. Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas didn't have a turn mechanic so it felt like it slowed down the game. I don't know why people would complain but you always have those butt-hurt people that the game should cater to only THEM.

Yeah the Grenade Hotkey in Project Nevada was a blessing.

I love the grenade indicators because it is a little hard to see them in game and I think they would really get your attention in the real world.

What impresses me is that the compass will now show you when enemies are above you or below you.

Some people liked to turn the enemy location markers off to make it challenge, but if someone is shooting at me, I think I should at least have an idea what direction the bullets are coming from.

Add in being able to use your weapon to melee...

And it is sweet!

I was looking closely at all those pip boy menu shots from E3 and youtube videos. While no basic hardcoe needs were visually obvious, this doesn't mean Beth didn't include it. FONV menu screens were similar looking until you toggled hardcoe mode from the game settings in the pause menu. That's when the FOD, H20, AND SLP needs became visible on the pip boy.

Even if Beth fails to add these 3 fundamental needs with the vanilla game, they're still on the drawing board IMO. Imp of the Perverse, PN team, and other food modders on Nexus/Steam most definitely have their work cut out for them.

I always played hardcoe in nv. I loved it. I want it in f4, its important to me.


But 1000 times more important is that healing will be done over time and slowly. Instant paused healing for my character breaks all game balance.

Why don't you use food to heal then? As it always heals over time.