To you taxing may be less evil than slavery but I don't so it's a matter of opinion.

I quite like it. Also, if you want tho get the most good ending you might want to try dominating all factions and leading Vegas yourself. There wiil probably be a good and bad way to take over Vegas.

Do non of you do your study?

The karma that tells you good or bad, is only a prefrence of how you see yourself. You could have murdered one faction but the other group of people wont care, they will praise you for killing those ghouls that attacked there said town... That was just an expample.

So you can be bad, or good, but to others it depends on how you act to them.

Games are made to sell, if they aren't made the way customers want them, so they are made to his preferences.

We could always find someone who's been a slave and ask what they think.

Like I said, only in America.

quit saying only in america..thats ignorant you [censored]

yeah and we can ask a poor person who is thrown in jail for not being able to pay taxes. And stop degrading my country. I dont say anything about yours.

We really don't know just how closely CL emulates the Roman Empire besides their clothing and rank structure. The Roman Empire was based on more than just enslaving people. To wit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

If CL has done half of the stuff on that list, I'd be very surprised. I don't see them building a lot of aqueducts.

Well the NCR goes ahead and takes whatever it wants. It may be for the "greater good", but they still do some pretty messed up things. Even some of the characters in the game mention it. Easy Pete says that he doesn't like the NCR because of that. Look at Vault City or how they're trying to take control of New Vegas. Anti-slavery is a "good" position, and slavery is a "bad" position, but that's just the surface of the conflict between the Legion and NCR.

Slavery and taxation are two sides of the same coin. Both are about denying property rights, and about forcing some individuals to work for other individuals. Taxation is percieved as less evil because it's more 'veiled' and abstract in nature.

Incidentally, regarding the topic title, you're always able to tell who is good and bad. If it turns out that all factions are bad, then go independent, sabotage them, and be either the people's champion or your own champion.

I think a lot of people are going to go the NCR route and be surprised at what they find.

Ummm...no. With taxes people get something in return. They get public order, infrastructure, national defense, so on and so forth. A slave is someone else's property until he dies. He does not benefit from his own labor. People (especially Americans) may not like taxes, but there's no question that they benefit from them.

I'm pretty sure the NCR will start in dissaray and corruption but as you progress in their storyline you will put them back in line of the good guys. As I said above the best way might be to go it alone and make the best for Vegas under your rule.

Slaves are someone else's property until they die, just as citizens of certain states are the state's property until they die. Same thing, different scale. People benefit from their own labor to the extent that they're able to keep the fruits of their own labor, and save, spend or invest it the way they see fit. I agree that some taxation is necessary in order to pay for things like the military and the courts of law, but some systems of taxation are less immoral than other. The Fair Tax system, for example, is a flat tax on consumption; meaning that the tax isn't forced on you, but that you pay a small one whenever you choose to purchase a product or service. As http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5puwTrLRhmw said though: "Collecting more taxes than is absolutely necessary is legalized robbery."

That's one system of slavery and one system of taxation. There are other possible models.

For example: NCR may be led by a power elite who are primarily concerned with using the resources they have to make things comfortable for themselves. They may charge ruinous taxes to all within their borders in exchange for "protection." They may then seize the property of all those who fail to pay taxes. Not saying they do, just saying it's an idea with historical precedent.

The Legion may have both slavery and a meritocracy existing side by side. Once taken as a slave, you may be able to improve your lot in accordance with your gifts. It is the post-apocalypse, after all... no reason for your inheritance or family connections to allow you to prosper. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamaluk, among others.

Remember though that you have to look at each person's end goals too. Just because Caesar's Legion uses harsh tactics doesn't mean that their end goal is bad. In fact I think that Caesar's Legion is actually the better choice for the wasteland as they will protect the people and bring order. NCR is easier on people but they don't protect them, exploit them, and make deals with criminals. Also the NCR seems unstable and prone to falling apart.

People are really willing to give the Legion the benefit of the doubt. I seriously doubt they're that nuanced. Every indication is that they're simply a army of tribals under Caesar's cult of personality. Maybe there's more to them than that, I'm remaining skeptical.

You can say the same thing for many, many empires who ruled through the use of slaves.... they brought "civilization" to the heathens and raised the overall quality of life for the general population even if they had to use slaves to do it.

Would you rather be ruled by a government that has no regard for the concerns of its citizens and deceives them into entering conflict after conflict (Vietnam, Iraq) that has no benefit for any of the parties involved, or be under the subject of a benevolent slaver who genuinely cares for his "property" and invests heavily into educating,maintaining health, and possibly freeing you once you have proved your aptitude and loyalty (like Greeks and Romans).

Either way a lot of people are going to suffer and die while overall the civilization progress and technology evolves because of them. Do not be so naive to think that anything is black or white. Notice who I never said which was better, because throughout history people have idolized both cultures and choose to accentuate the positives while eliminating the negatives (go go Mary Poppins! I think).

I'd like to just note that this was already discussed on 8 pages in the "opinions about the NCR" thread i made with a lot of detail. :huh:

Well, I wouldn't say only, and generalizing other people isn't a model of correctness, but historically, the United States was formed from outrage over taxes that paid for the defense of the United States, yet they kept slavery intact. Chances are, if this game were released to a public audience with the mindset possibilies of revolutionary Americans, many people would side with Caesar's Legion for a hatred of taxes and acceptance of slavery. I can guarantee that isn't the case with most modern Americans, but if anyone from any part of the modern world were to be placed into New Vegas, enslaving someone else over being taxed might be a tempting choice. Picture this. You're in a wasteland where food, drink, medicine, and, especially, luxuries are not guaranteed parts of existence. Would you rather be taxed, of have someone else perform work for you instead? Would you rather bear a financial burden or have someone work for you? With the first choice, you may get something back, but you have to pay something. With the second choice, you don't have to pay anything other than the supplies the slave need, which he/she may be working to produce, and you still get something.

"benevolent slaver". No such thing.

The english had slaves at that time, I think, and there was also indentured servitude which was volunteering to be someone's slave for a period of time to pay off debts. So slavery was a constant and not a variable in that equation.

Aye, but the English accepted the taxes they paid for the defense of the American colonies. Anyway, I'm just saying that slavery, which upheld an economy, being abolished didn't seem to be as much of a priority as separating over taxes.

Good and Bad are subjective. If Caesar is brutal but he brings peace to the wasteland, does that make him bad? And if the NCR taxes everybody but can't enforce laws, does that make them bad?

I can't remember corectly but I believe the taxes were funding a war against France, which is why the British were not able to supple enough troops to quell rebellion.