Anyone else think the Legion is ridiculous?

Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:41 am

You guys are letting Sawyer pwn you.
Do something
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Laura Elizabeth
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:54 am

I think it is odd that you choose to highlight the exceptions rather than the very obvious reality that defined the rule: the Roman republic and empire lived and thrived on slave labor for one thousand years. The vast majority of people who were born into slavery or were taken in as slaves, lived their whole lives as slaves and died as slaves.

Yes, many slaves in the antebellum American south ran away. The overwhelming majority did not do so until their plantations (typically) were so obviously abandoned that there was no fear of reprisal. Running away is also very different from rising up against. It's certainly very different from the scenario you initially described where everyone who is not a legionary is continuously watching and waiting for an opportunity to bravely attack their captors. I also didn't suggest that no one would resist. Bitter Springs is a refugee camp consisting of NCR military personnel watching over (mostly) escaped slaves. But for every escaped slave, there are a bunch of corpses of slaves and a bunch of badly beaten slaves who didn't make it. And for every one of them, there are probably a dozen people who never attempted to escape and never will. There are so many cases of long-lasting oppression and enslavement in human history that the exceptions just register as tiny blips to me. People like Boudica and Spartacus are exceptional specifically because the vast majority of people who were oppressed by the Romans wound up being silently ground into the dust over a lifetime of war or servitude.

EDIT: For some additional perspective on how I view these things, most of what I studied in college was social history, which often comes across as a huge foot stomping on millions of faces for a few thousand years.

Not to mention even if you kill the Legion at The Fort they don't run away probably fearing Death if the legion ends up killing you and then rounding up the runaways
Though that may just be an oversight
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Russell Davies
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:40 am

To be honest, I thought the Legion seemed pretty logical in its methodology. If you try to remove quaint notions about the "sanctity" of a human life it boils down to the laws of economics.... and if a system works, it will work no matter what ideology you are using as a contrast when examining it. A lot of people in the US have a hard time understanding this because it does not fit with a lot of religious teachings in the communities they were raised in. No matter how you try to show the objective reason why something works they will have a nagging feeling that it should not work because it is not "right".

Just something off the top of my head while sleep is calling.....
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Andrew Lang
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:31 am

To be honest, I thought the Legion seemed pretty logical in its methodology. If you try to remove quaint notions about the "sanctity" of a human life it boils down to the laws of economics.... and if a system works, it will work no matter what ideology you are using as a contrast when examining it. A lot of people in the US have a hard time understanding this because it does not fit with a lot of religious teachings in the communities they were raised in. No matter how you try to show the objective reason why something works they will have a nagging feeling that it should not work because it is not "right".

Just something off the top of my head while sleep is calling.....

I found my hate for the Legion while walking down the road to Cottonwood Cove
They take torture too far for minor things
But Caesar's legion won't last like Marcus said
They don't believe in it , They believe in Caesar
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Sandeep Khatkar
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:23 pm

Not to mention even if you kill the Legion at The Fort they don't run away probably fearing Death if the legion ends up killing you and then rounding up the runaways
Though that may just be an oversight



When people get into a regimented lifestyle they will follow the rhythm of the routine because they are attuned to it after a while..... just like anything else people become accustomed to their situation. Just look at all of the dysfunctional relationships that people stay in for no sane reason.
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maya papps
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:27 am

There have been studies where even simulating being oppressed will leave most people very docile. No-one knows what sets off rebellions in some populations and not in others, but it never seems to start spontaniously, has to be the right time, set of circumstances and right leading agitator.
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Maeva
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:58 pm

When people get into a regimented lifestyle they will follow the rhythm of the routine because they are attuned to it after a while..... just like anything else people become accustomed to their situation. Just look at all of the dysfunctional relationships that people stay in for no sane reason.

Still
If i'm a slave for 4 years first good chance i get i'm running
Courier should at least be able to get them to leave
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Joe Bonney
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:11 pm

I think that one of the biggest disconnects for the game is the heavy Latin language emphasis of the Legion. Taking place in the American Southwest and West, the heaviest influence on the 87 "tribal languages" that were molded into the Legion would have been American-version English. Followed by Spanish, the several reservations of Native American tribal languages, and a smattering of Chinese dialects (remnants descended from the Chinese railroad workers for the most part). Nowhere would there be any kind of concentration of Latin-speakers. Logically, Caesar _should_ have used English (maybe Spanish) as his empire's lingua franca. Literally, he would have had to teach EVERYONE how to speak Latin from scratch. And since he seemed to be hoarding books to be used almost exclusively for himself, about the only way he could have gotten a cadre of Latin teachers is if he educated those instructors himself. At the same time that he was teaching the Blackfeet how to **properly** wage war, use more sophisticated weapons, infantry tactics, command structure, et al. There simply would NOT have been enough hours in the day to juggle all of that. The path of least resistance, Occam's Razor, would have been ti focus on a language that most of those 87 tribes already had as the foundation of their "tribal languages".


They don't actually speak Latin. They speak English with a bunch of Latin phrases.
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Pants
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:58 pm

Nah, i still see the Legion as a good faction, i prefer them than a Mad Max esque slavers

black and white nature


How is that possible in a gray and gray moriality world?
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Aman Bhattal
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:52 pm

Now list all of the years where there were no revolts worthy of entry into any surviving historical record. The republic lasted for about 500 years, the subsequent empire for another 500 before it fractured/collapsed. For 1000 years, that's really not much revolt.


Actually, it was two thousand years.
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TASTY TRACY
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:10 am

Nah, i still see the Legion as a good faction, i prefer them than a Mad Max esque slavers



How is that possible in a gray and gray moriality world?

Because Black and white DO exist, some people, not very commonly, are paradigms of humanity, just as there are serial killers with no remorse or emotion over what they did. The thing is, people often say 'There is no good and no evil, just shades of grey', which simply is not true, the more accurate truth is the there is black, grey, and white. But the grey is a dominate number on the chart. Of course, in a game like Fallout: New Vegas, people say NCR are the good guys, House is the neutral, and the Legion are the evil (Yes Man is invalid in this as it depends per player) But the thing is, people are defining things based on alot of social norms ideas of the word 'good and evil' so the Legion are typically going to be called evil, but some see the Legions behavior as a means to an end. I see House as good, because that is my perspective, you see the Legion as good, because that is your perspective. But we cannot forget true good and true evil DO exist, I can't think of a true evil faction, I would say Powder Ganger, but one could argue them as people doing bad things in the name of survival, I dont, but others will defend them, lord knows why though. But the FotA could be defined as a True Good faction, if you exclude what Tom Anderson did, which even then was to protect Westside, the FotA largely offer charity to the poor and turn away no one, as well as bring education and in a peaceful way.
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Greg Cavaliere
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:04 pm

It's always nice to see Sawyer pop in on one of these threads, but it's a shame he felt to need to comment in this one. Everything he summarized for us is in the game -- granted, the information varies due to your faction alliances (not until my 4th playthrough did I have a decent conversation with Caesar), but it's there.
This thread is based on a shallow misunderstanding of a pretty interesting, well-reasoned concept. That's not a dig at the OP -- like I said, it took me a while to see the whole picture. It helps if you realize Caesar is not emulating history -- he's using it.

This is a good illustration of the irritating tendency of game fans to criticize based on their enjoyment of a game or game element. You may not like it, but that does not mean it is flawed, afflicted with 'lazy' writing or that it is an error. It means you didn't like it. Period.

It's one thing to say, 'I did not like Caesar's Legion'. That's fine. It's expressing an opinion. It's quite another thing to say, 'Caesar's Legion SUX'. It's terribly elitist to presume that the hours you spent playing a game is in any way commensurate to the months or years that the creators spent making it.

I have something of a personal stake in this. Many years ago I was involved in writing and illustrating a book for the Hero System called 'Horror Hero'. The internet reviews were not very good, because we went to great pains to emphasize the fun of fighting monsters rather than settle for producing a clone of Call of Cthulhu or World of Darkness. We indulged in some EC comics gags, made bat-sh*t crazy, larger than life NPCs, wrote some sections in lurid cod-pulp style, kept in mind that we were writing for people who usually played superheroes, etc. Professional reviews were generally positive, because people who were in the industry understood what we were trying to do. It's the same thing here. You guys who are quick to criticize have no idea of the thought and effort that goes into projects like this.

It's like that little sub-thread about the flaws of F3. Bethesda deliberately echoed elements of the previous games because they knew that the majority of the people who would play it had no previous exposure to Fallout. This wasn't ripping off, it wasn't a lack of imagination and it wasn't 'lazy' writing.

Sorry about the self-indulgent rant. I'm aware that without baseless complaining the glorious internet would evaporate. But for pity's sake try to have some perspective, people, and think about things instead of indulging your emotional responses.
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Megan Stabler
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:07 pm

...A whole bunch of real life history stuff, over several quotes....


All of that is well and good, according to OUR history, (notable exceptions excluded, like, oh, the USA), but in the established game history, where people are, even after 200 years (unbelievable, I know, but I didn't write it) STILL operating in "survival mode", where even the most mundane of characters (male and female alike) are at the very least armed and ready to respond to an onslaught of "raiders" at any given moment, the Legion just doesn't hold up. Sure, there are folks who aren't interested in any conflict between any factions, but do you think that after carving out their own chunk of the desert that they are just going to lay down and take whatever happens to be tossed at them? Or better yet, that there would be ENOUGH "mini-Caesars" to go around to keep all these sheep in line? Especially after eliminating at least 3/4 of the population capable of doing so? After all, women cannot serve, and most (but I'll say half to be fair) men of "serving age" would be lost to attrition. That absolutely works fine, over the course of a thousand years, but not, as evidenced by more recent history, in 200 or so...

Now, if you wanted to use "real world" history to justify all that- Fine, but you then really must look at what we, as humans, have accomplished in the last 200 years... Very likely, even given the '50s speculative-tech, and working backwards from there, people would have already been funneled into safer settlements and had a much larger "organized" and technologically superior presence than the game gives us, and defense of such from the "non-conformists", mil-spec mutants, and other hazards that nature herself presents (all of which they have been dealing with for 170 years already) would not just be exception, but a way of life. That being said, you would have a pretty weak gaming premise, so I get it, but in the "reality" framed by the game itself, it (the Legion) simply makes less sense than the others...
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Jennifer May
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:32 pm

All of that is well and good, according to OUR history, (notable exceptions excluded, like, oh, the USA), but in the established game history, where people are, even after 200 years (unbelievable, I know, but I didn't write it) STILL operating in "survival mode", where even the most mundane of characters (male and female alike) are at the very least armed and ready to respond to an onslaught of "raiders" at any given moment, the Legion just doesn't hold up. Sure, there are folks who aren't interested in any conflict between any factions, but do you think that after carving out their own chunk of the desert that they are just going to lay down and take whatever happens to be tossed at them? Or better yet, that there would be ENOUGH "mini-Caesars" to go around to keep all these sheep in line? Especially after eliminating at least 3/4 of the population capable of doing so? After all, women cannot serve, and most (but I'll say half to be fair) men of "serving age" would be lost to attrition. That absolutely works fine, over the course of a thousand years, but not, as evidenced by more recent history, in 200 or so...

Now, if you wanted to use "real world" history to justify all that- Fine, but you then really must look at what we, as humans, have accomplished in the last 200 years... Very likely, even given the '50s speculative-tech, and working backwards from there, people would have already been funneled into safer settlements and had a much larger "organized" and technologically superior presence than the game gives us, and defense of such from the "non-conformists", mil-spec mutants, and other hazards that nature herself presents (all of which they have been dealing with for 170 years already) would not just be exception, but a way of life. That being said, you would have a pretty weak gaming premise, so I get it, but in the "reality" framed by the game itself, it (the Legion) simply makes less sense than the others...


So you are saying that instead of multiple factions, We'd just happen to unite and form a super-state?

Um.. If i read this correctly, No it would'nt likely happen.
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Allison C
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:36 pm

Still
If i'm a slave for 4 years first good chance i get i'm running
Courier should at least be able to get them to leave

But that's you. I'm with you, I find it hard to believe that people would stay in situations like that cause I sure as hell wouldnt, but most people are not like that. Even my mom who is a strong individual was in a mentally abusive relationship for years. People who are mentally abused are ten times more likely to have mental problems than people who are sixually And physically abused.
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Siobhan Wallis-McRobert
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:13 am

As a Fallout fan AND historian I find this debate rather interesting. The Legion makes sense to me---perfect sense, especially with the slave aspect. Everyone should look up the term "hegemony" right now and take notes.
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Vera Maslar
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:51 am

This is by no means a comprehensive list. Pretty much every nation or empire has experienced revolts and rebellions. Pretty much every nation that has had large-scale slavery has had Slave Revolts. All it takes is for the oppressed to start thinking that the attention of their masters is elsewhere, or "What have we got to lose?" (in the case of particularly harsh slavery).


It takes a great deal more than that.. When you're faced with guns and you have fists, your people are being shot left and right and you're being ordered into gas chambers.. it takes a lot more courage and sacrifice than "oh they're looking the other way!"

The ones who start a revolt usually pay for it with their very lives. The first upstarts are usually shot dead. It's up to the people who witness this to carry on the revolt or it will fall apart.

Slavery and oppression is not as easy a thing to defeat as you may think.

6 Million+ Jews died in the holocaust.. don't you think they wanted to fight back? However, faced with that decision would you be willing to throw your life away (knowing you'd be shot dead on the spot) for the small chance that others would follow your example? Food for thought :)
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Hairul Hafis
 
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Post » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:09 am

It's interesting that some folks think that everybody has the capacity to rebel and that 'survival mode' means that every person will go down fighting. The Legion seem very astute at being able to break the will of most folks. I'm sure that the majority of those slaves see their world as hopeless. Also, take in account all of the psychological issues that could keep individuals from rising up and rebelling, like Stockholm's syndrome. Nothing in all existence is as simple as black and white. Life is like an onion. You can only see the outer layer, but there are usually a dozen underlying layers. Even the FotA are not perfect. For instance,
Spoiler
what about the deal she makes with the Atomic Wrangler in order to ensure a steady stream of medical supplies. Enabling the immoral behavior of the Atomic Wrangler is a means to an end.
It is for the better good but the layers to get there are very complex and not 'black and white'. To think that most of the FotA do not have their own personal selfish agendas is a bit oblivious.
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kat no x
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:01 pm

The post its becoming really insteresting :hubbahubba:
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Lily Evans
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:16 pm

So you are saying that instead of multiple factions, We'd just happen to unite and form a super-state?

Um.. If i read this correctly, No it would'nt likely happen.


Uhh, nope, not at all... I'm simply stating that as the "game universe" is presented, flies in the face of what OUR reality is based in and on. That is as it should be, I don't want to take out my garbage (literally) in a game, BUT, there needs to be some intelligent balance, as opposed to simply saying: "Well, he was just that cool, tough, relentless, etc..."

That being said, if you set a precedent for people "hardened by experience", only a few (at best) generations removed from those that suffered the most, an "all inclusive, militaristic leader", and his cohorts wouldn't be enough to overcome the will of people educated by the school of "Hard Knocks", especially when his soldiery is drawn from a very small pool of capable, eligible, and if not willing, at least "cowed enough to participate" individuals that comprise FAR less than 1/4 of the available "human resources"... Then you try to condense that into 20 years, barely enough time to obtain and train the FIRST generation of capable, willing soldiers (out of an already diminished pool of males), and you start having credibility issues...

Sure, there will be factions, and of course, they won't all get along nice, but at the point that THE GAME is trying to make it happen, it simply wouldn't. Take the polar opposite of the Legion- the Followers of the Apocalypse (in F:NV)... Even though they are in fact working VERY HARD at improving the condition of life for all the wasteland junkies (a fair portion of the survivors thus far, as it is presented), their success is, at best minimal... Why? Of course, in Caesar's world, they'd be dead already, but that completely flies in the face of SURVIVAL. A human trait so "important" that it was given its own perk in this iteration, even though it simply amounts to a cook book... :down:

The short version- Caesar is no match for whoever the PC is, regardless of his intentions, moral barometer, force of will, or any other "deus ex machina", because (again) in the framework laid out by the game itself, it just wouldn't work, because once he's gone, so is the Legion. Sure there might be remnants who would blindly cling to the ideals he presented, but they would be rapidly overcome by the confusion left in the vacuum his demise would create, unless of course the PC sided with him surreptitiously to gain his position, which isn't an option (in the game) as far as I can tell.

That leaves the player with either kissing his a$$, or wiping him out, with option 2 being the easiest...
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Allison Sizemore
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:10 am

Uhh, nope, not at all... I'm simply stating that as the "game universe" is presented, flies in the face of what OUR reality is based in and on. That is as it should be, I don't want to take out my garbage (literally) in a game, BUT, there needs to be some intelligent balance, as opposed to simply saying: "Well, he was just that cool, tough, relentless, etc..."

That being said, if you set a precedent for people "hardened by experience", only a few (at best) generations removed from those that suffered the most, an "all inclusive, militaristic leader", and his cohorts wouldn't be enough to overcome the will of people educated by the school of "Hard Knocks", especially when his soldiery is drawn from a very small pool of capable, eligible, and if not willing, at least "cowed enough to participate" individuals that comprise FAR less than 1/4 of the available "human resources"... Then you try to condense that into 20 years, barely enough time to obtain and train the FIRST generation of capable, willing soldiers (out of an already diminished pool of males), and you start having credibility issues...

Sure, there will be factions, and of course, they won't all get along nice, but at the point that THE GAME is trying to make it happen, it simply wouldn't. Take the polar opposite of the Legion- the Followers of the Apocalypse (in F:NV)... Even though they are in fact working VERY HARD at improving the condition of life for all the wasteland junkies (a fair portion of the survivors thus far, as it is presented), their success is, at best minimal... Why? Of course, in Caesar's world, they'd be dead already, but that completely flies in the face of SURVIVAL. A human trait so "important" that it was given its own perk in this iteration, even though it simply amounts to a cook book... :down:

The short version- Caesar is no match for whoever the PC is, regardless of his intentions, moral barometer, force of will, or any other "deus ex machina", because (again) in the framework laid out by the game itself, it just wouldn't work, because once he's gone, so is the Legion. Sure there might be remnants who would blindly cling to the ideals he presented, but they would be rapidly overcome by the confusion left in the vacuum his demise would create, unless of course the PC sided with him surreptitiously to gain his position, which isn't an option (in the game) as far as I can tell.

That leaves the player with either kissing his a$$, or wiping him out, with option 2 being the easiest...


So you are saying that Caesar's Legion is lost without Caesar to lead them?

Nonsense, I doubt that Lanius will be the best leader, But I bet that others such as Caesars Guard would be better for a leader for CL.
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carly mcdonough
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:18 pm

You guys are letting Sawyer pwn you.
Do something


Okay :bowdown: :bowdown: J.E. Sawyer
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Jamie Moysey
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:53 am

So you are saying that Caesar's Legion is lost without Caesar to lead them?

Nonsense, I doubt that Lanius will be the best leader, But I bet that others such as Caesars Guard would be better for a leader for CL.


You are forgetting the basic tenets that Caesar built his "empire" (in the game, anyhow) on... That HE alone is educated enough to perpetrate/accomplish what he has, in the briefest possible of time spans. Not only that, but his "rule" included, and was in fact based on the notion that nobody "under" him would have the same knowledge. How else could he keep his "seconds" in thrall? If they knew the "truth": that he was basing his entire campaign on keeping only the FACTS that worked in his (relatively small and shortsighted) world view, and disregarding ALL others, regardless of their tactical, strategic, or other "leadership" abilities, they would themselves (if intelligent enough) likely revolt themselves!

That would be cool to see in the game, but simply not possible (again) in the framework we are given. What we have is a "terminal Hitler", who has no compunction whatsoever to perpetuate his legacy beyond his lifespan, regardless of the reasons. The result is that even if a player sides with the Legion, once he (Caesar) kicks off, there would likely be either A ) the PC (as I have stated above) in charge, or B ) a shambles of deserting yahoos with skirts beating feet for the nearest cave, all because their "divine inspiration", fanatical devotion, or what the Hell ever, has managed to kick the oxygen habit.

Simply put, without the head, the dragon can't bite... (Sure you could toss in a Hydra reference, but which of the 7 is in charge then?)...
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NIloufar Emporio
 
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Post » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:10 am

Bitter Springs is a refugee camp consisting of NCR military personnel watching over (mostly) escaped slaves. But for every escaped slave, there are a bunch of corpses of slaves and a bunch of badly beaten slaves who didn't make it.

Not to say you are wrong, but that's not the impression I got of Bitter Springs. My impression was that they were people from East of the Colorado that fled before the Legion borders flowed over wherever it was they had been living. (Much like the flood of refugees that materialize in front of any other aggressive army on the march.) IF there were any runaway slaves, I suppose Bitter Springs would be where they would most likely end up, at least initially. (I can envision that the NCR Intel branch would want to question _anyone_ that had come from behind Legion lines, hoping to glean any info concerning Legion troop movements and operations.) However, I don't recall _anyone_ at the Bitter Springs refugee camp identifying themselves as runaway slaves. In fact, I don't recall _anyone_ in the game identifying themselves as runaway slaves. The closest that I recall is the trio of slaves-in-the-making at Cottonwood Cove -- and pointedly, they hadn't been integrated into the slave population as yet.

I should, in all fairness, mention that there ARE two conditions where I believe slavery "works" (sort of).

1) To my mind, I think that slaves become and remain slaves because they of a mindset that goes "I do what I must in order to stay alive. In a harsh world bereft of safety and security, an environment where one receives adequate food and shelter in exchange for labor performed might/would look like a good deal. That means that a patronage-style of slavery -- the lord takes care of and maintains his slaves; essentially, the slaves are like unpaid servants -- would have considerable appeal. Most medieval apprenticeship programs were actually had much in common with slavery, the obvious difference being that the "slavery" had a duration after which the apprentice/slave graduates and heads off into the world enriched by his education. Such apprenticeships were highly sought after, and many eager parents actually "sold" their children into such "slavery". The same goes for bond servants, which many people would "sell" themselves into (usually for the price f transportation to the New World). So, treat your slaves nice, and protect them from raiders, brigands, radscorpions, deathclaws, etc.

2) Assure that disobedience results in _immediate_ pain and/or death. The explosive slave collars would/could account for such compliance -- except that the radio-controlled go-past-this-line-and-kaboom device is too high-tech to be commonplace in Legion territory. It would work in localized places such as Cottonwood Cove, but considering that generally speaking, higher tech NOT directly under the control of Caesar seems to be anathema to Caesar. A system that requires the creation, manufacture, distribution, and maintenance of tens of thousands of radio-controlled collars doesn't jive. [If Caesar actually allowed the use of LOTS of tech within his empire, totally different story.]
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Deon Knight
 
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Post » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:01 pm



Like Colonel Martyr said, the Caesar Legion wasnt supposed to be a replica of the real Caesar Legion, not even the Khan are like the Mongols Khans


I didn't say anything about the in-game faction being a replica of the ancient Rome legions, I am just saying that I found the in-game faction, as presented, not a very good concept and rather dull.
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Ross Thomas
 
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