Not every faction must have a Combat armor, also, the Legion have the best light armor in the game

No, I'm not kidding, and you missed my point. I didn't claim that effort magically produces quality. My whole point is that sometimes things that appear to be mistakes are design choices. Whether they are sound choices is another matter.



There are many games I dislike that have won lots of awards and sold very well. Is it 'elitist' if I just choose to not play them? Does my dislike of Left for Dead automatically mean I think there is something wrong with it? No, I just don't enjoy playing it. It would be elitist if I posted on a message board that the people who did enjoy those games were idiots, or that the games were bad just because I didn't like them.
More to the point, it would be wrong of me to declare that Left for Dead is bad because the zombies are too fast or that the characters don't get infected, because that would mean I am ignoring the deliberate design of the game. If I stated that I would enjoy the game more if the zombies were slower and if there was a chance of infection, that would be okay.
But what I was responding to were posters who complained while ignoring or lacking all the relevant data. In short, not asking why something is presented in a certain manner & believing, in their short space of time with the game, that they have given it more thought than the creators.



Right. I agree, gameplay is king. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about whether Caesar's Legion is designed well & whether it is a viable concept. All was saying (or trying to, at least) was give the designers a little credit.



Hah! I'm not worried, sir or madam. The internet will continue on, self-indulgent rants and all. I regret I did not make myself understood. Hopefully you have a better idea what I was driving at, which in it's simplest form would be, 'Don't be so hasty'.

Even if they did survived what were the chances they remained closed for 200 years waiting for the Legion to arrive?

Also they do use PARTS of the Combat armor, they recycle as much as they can and after 200 years chances are not that much is around, after all Combat Armor is expensive and uncommon ... the NCR used it back in FO2 in their police forces but the fact their military does not in FO:NV indicates there is simply not enough and just look were the NCR is standing on, that was were US Soldiers were being shipped to fight in China and yet they dont seem to be capable of having enough of that advanced technology in order to make it standard issue on their military.

Sad to say but I don't think Wasteland will be mentioned or given credit for anything anymore. Fallout was inspired by Wasteland and is even talked about by Tycho in FO1 but Bethesda did not buy the rights to Wasteland. New Vegas changed the reason why Vegas was not hit. Wasteland has a very different reason that reason was hinted at in FO1.

I'm starting to love the legion more and more. I mean just the way caeser keeps order within ranks, the way the legion won't back down at anything, the way they fight to the death. It's pretty wicked if you ask me. I just wish the legion in game had way more quests to do. I'm starting to get bored decapitating the NCR.

Well, the mention of Desert Rangers was a reference to Wasteland.

That pretty much should be the case for EVERYTHING that the characters salvage. After 200 years of practically everyone doing at least **some** scavenging, there really would be pretty much _nothing_ to be found in derelict desks, trashed trash cans, crumbling cabinets, rusted out refrigerators, et al. Not to mention that practically all batteries would be depleted. (They do have a limited shelf life after all.) Which means that in the absence of high-tech factories to produce weaponry, most communities would have to rely on manufactured-one-at-a-time muzzle-loaders using black powder. But over 200 years, there would be a fairly decent probability that at least a few places would have been able to recover to where they could build newer factories that could make at least some simplified firearms. (Perhaps as complicated as a M-1 Garand or Sten gun. Definitely some Gatling guns. (The early versions actually used black powder.) But if that's the case, there would be less scavenging and more trying to take better weapons from those that got them originally from those newer factories.

But if you seriously curtail scavenging in Fallout, would it even be the same game, or even close to the same game?

As was the Deathclaw, Power Armor, Brotherhood of Steel, criminal organizations wrestling for control of Las Vegas, and a bunch of other things that appear throughout the Fallout series.

I don't like wearing skirt. so i never like legion. when i heard legion. i thought it would be something very man, universal soldier alike....but in fact. just a bunch a man trying to be a woman. very sissy. the uniform i just hate it, wanna puek......

You do realize your logic doesnt make any sense? In the "game history" its taken civilization over 2500(i know its more) years just to get to the point it was at before the great war. That was the Peak of human civilization. And with that war humanity was wiped off the face of the planet. And you just expect humanity to magically restore it self to the exact same point it was at in only 200 years? Well, sir i beg to differ, thats not how it would work (and as a matter of fact thats not how it did work). Also if you dont want Mr. Sawyer to compare actuall history to the games history, you should also try to refrain from doing so in your argument, it just makes you look like a hypocrite.

at the beginning of the game, making caesar mad at you isn't a good idea. i found out the hard way. his army can be very powerful in the beginning, but as the PC becomes more experienced, his army becomes wimpy.

1) Humanity was NOT "wiped from the face of the planet". In fact, the very large majority of the people alive at the time of the game(s) were descended from people that had survived on the surface. There's no arguing that the people that came out of the Vaults had a significant impact one way or another (Vaults 21, 3, and the people that started Vault City for example), but for sheer numbers, it's mostly surface survivor descendants.

2) 2500 years ago a "well-educated person" would have the equivalent of a grammar school education, at most. Many things that we today take as obvious facts were yet to be established as facts. Science was in its infancy. Conversely, nearly everyone over the age of 18 at the time of the Great War has at least a high school education, with a very large percentage having college degrees as well. Plus, as you can see as you stumble around the Wasteland, there's _still_ an incredible number of books still floating around. Add the fact that we have had several generations that seriously revere the idea that "You need to get a decent education." Intelligence is a survival trait, and survivors of the Great War probably would want their children to survive as well. In all probability, even denied the availability of electricity, parents would at least try to home school their kids. And their kids teach the next generation.

Just because there had been an atomic war doesn't mean EVERYONE (or even the majority) of survivors to conclude "School's out FOREVER!" [Attaboys for those that recognize the musical reference.] Bombing people back to the Stone Age is NOT as easy as one might imagine. It isn't like a switch gets flipped and suddenly everyone loses 90 IQ points.

absolutely ridiculous!! Hail to Good over Evil in Fallout!!! Lol

The Legion was the best part of FNV IMO.

They costume is based in the real life Legion of Rome, remember that this Fallout, its gonna be very complicated to see some thing of Universal Soldier esque army

And they re not triying to be a woman, and sissy? haha yeah, the NCR owns them anytime (sarcarsm)

Don t let that their skirts confuse you, back in the ancient times, most of the soldiers even use them, so is no a fact, that only you point of view on them

Yes and No. Tycho in FO1 talked about them which was a reference to wasteland. New Vegas is going by what Tycho said so it was a referece already in Fallout lore. I don't think there will be anything other then that. Wasteland had a much better reason for Vegas not being destroyed then New Vegas. Mr.House could have pulled off Wastelands version.

Not that New Vegas idea was bad

I guess the question at this point becomes this- "In the event of a global nuclear catastrophe, would humanity cease to exist?" In which case the answer is "No."

Another question could be this- "Given OUR real life history, on this planet, and all the experiences that it entails, does the game FO:NV accurately reflect our (in this reality) tech or educational advancement?" again, the answer would be "No."

Now, if you shunt the justification for spending your $60 for a product that may or may not deliver what it claims to, the question you NEED to ask is this:

"In light of the fact that human knowledge expands at an exponential rate, and given the framework offered by the previous games, including VERY advanced technology (compared to what we as real people have), does a luddite army led by a megalomaniacal figure bent on exerting his will, with no reason other than desire, and more importantly, no true will power, to actually see it through to its logical and tragic conclusion, make any sense in the universe as it is presented?"

Well, the answer again would be "No", for all the reasons I and others stated above, and plenty more. If you are going to completely base Caesar's actions on history, fine, and it might even succeed at that point, but when the character only uses that as a basis for his "rule", leaving off bits that din't stroke his ego (which would be tenuous at best, given the circumstances), ignoring MOST of the things that made it operable, let alone successful, as happens in the game, well, then you have issues.

As for your "2500 years", well, I really need to ask: "When exactly do you think that folks from our version of the 1950s came up with laser and plasma weapons, especially since we (in real life) don't even have them now?" Would it have been year "0", or, perhaps closer to "year 2450?" To be honest, neither answer works in your favor, but cling to what you must.

If Sawyer can "take and leave" bits of OUR collective history in creating a game and its characters, then surely I can examine those bits with the same microscope...

I don't necessarily agree with this one. A point that is generally overlooked is that the Great War didn't occur until _2077_, which is still 67 years off in our Real Life timeline. A few years back, there was some serious research into Cold Fusion. (That line of Research most likely was squashed by the Big Oil industries, fearful that their own product would be minimized in a fusion-powered world.) Who is to say whether or not, given an additional 67 years, that Real Life Science couldn't develop the advanced tech weapons that people are decrying as "unrealistic"?

Because of the _social_ appearance of the pre-Great War game world, we unconsciously have equated it to be **exactly** like our own 1950s ("except for this _____, and except for that _____.") The actual unrealistic aspect is that the game world society seemed to get stuck in the 1950s, with no changes in fashions and attitudes. That society was soooo stagnant that it seems the ONLY serious changes that kept on changing was the area of weapons research.

Personally, what I find most unlikely, Science-wise, is the Microfusion Cells and weapons powered by batteries the size of a couple D-cell batteries (or even smaller). That's an unlikely amount of energy output from a container that small. I would instead expect a laser pistol powered by a backpack the size of the one that feeds the minigun. But then, nearly all of ScFi literature is predicated on hand-held energy blasters of one sort or another.

I think this thread is turning into a debate of the best exercise in futility, "beat the dead horse or squeeze blood from a stone."

Yep, thats why I have a vertibird ready for my immediate evacuation when I see where a thread is going. When posts go from sentences to paragraphs, it usually means run.

If you read what i wrote, (which by the way you took that out of context) 2000 years makes sense (ignoring bc). I wasnt speaking about specifically about advanced weaponry, more or less about society as a whole. So go back and read that, then try and make an argument.
But my question to you would be- "Do you really think that no one would try to take power again?" The answer would be, yes.

"In light of the fact that human knowledge expands at an exponential rate, and given the framework offered by the previous games, including VERY advanced technology (compared to what we as real people have), does a luddite army led by a megalomaniacal figure bent on exerting his will, with no reason other than desire, and more importantly, no true will power, to actually see it through to its logical and tragic conclusion, make any sense in the universe as it is presented?"

I dissagree with the will power part. but other than that it makes sense. Have you played any of the other games? Because this sounds like every other leader of the "bad faction". You really think that it would be statiscally impossible of another tyrantical ruler to come about? Well reality would have to dissagree with you.

And i really cant see how you can nit pick a characters motivation to rule the wastes as unrealistic, but you're satisfied with robots, laser weapons, and mutants.... but cling to what you must.

Caesar Legion needs more love, sure they use miniskirst, but what about the raiders in Capital Wasteland and their "sadistic" look???

Caesar Legion was always portrayed like this, even in Van Buren

Slavery 101

Always ship the captured slaves to a foreign territory, that way if they do escape they have no familiar territory to return to. That's why Native Americans weren't taken as slaves in the US, it was too easy for them to escape and reunite with their tribe. Runaway Negro slaves were not as common as you'd think because they had no where to go, and it was only through assistance from Northern abolitionists that made running away even viable.

Actually....it was mainly because they would either a) kill themselves, or B) attack and kill thier owners at first opportunity. In not a few of the Caribbean islands the Spanish enslaved the natives, who promptly refused to breed and often killed themselves...causing them to eventually die out. So then they started buying from the slave traders in Africa.

I'd say the only problem with the Legion is that the game engine isn't capable of handling the massive numbers that their concept requires. They are supposed to be an overwhelming force based on manpower as I understood it.

Depends on how many you think I think there had been. How many is "many"?

"The development of the underground railroad increased the number of slaves who were able to reach safety. By the middle of the 19th century it was estimated that over 50,000 slaves had escaped from the South using this method." And that only counts those that used the Underground Railroad. (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASrunaways.htm 6th paragraph) Besides, we're not counting just those that got away, but rather those that simply made a break for it (which would be a MUCH larger number).