I strongly believe they WONT make the same mistakes they made perviously

I learned my lesson from Fable 1. The promises made about how AI would act (and interact) was so much fiction. So, having had that experience, I never expected Oblivion's AI to be that deep. Thusly, I wasn't disappointed.

With Skyrim, I don't think we'll see much of an improvement over Oblivion in terms of the actual AI, but I think the implementation will be at least somewhat better. "Radiant Story" is just a fancy name for a quest generation script, which I have no problem with because it means dynamic locations ala Red Dead.

All I have to say is Oblivion was done on the Gamebryo engine. A 10+ year old piece of crap that they did not own and possibly did not have great control/understanding of. Now they have their OWN engine, and can do whatever they want. There should be no 'technical limitations' with it this time around. I am incredibly confident that we will be pleased with it.

I agree - Oblivion's AI beats the pants off DA:O's, in which the NPC's might as well be statues. I think some people let themselves get carried away with the hype over radiant AI and set themselves up for disappointment.

This new engine will do it. Still, we should keep this thread as active as possible so that Bethesda will see it at some point. They need to know what we're expecting.

Yep. I wonder if this is behind the information about each city/town having its own economy. This might be a way of avoiding that problem which apparently plagued Oblivion's development, where locations would run out of food and NPCs would kill each other for food. Perhaps the idea here is that NPCs will have jobs which generate food, and this will result in the fairly continuous production of food in either their houses, or in taverns.

Well a large part of the Radiant AI that bethesda touted with Oblivion was the daily schedules, dynamic conversations, and a less static world.... all of which were in Oblivion. Yes they removed/lied about the dynamic aspects of the RAI, but most of what you see in that video is in the final game (Todd Howard does mention dynamic aspects regarding finding food that likely never were in the game at any point). So while they did stretch the truth, or use some smoke and mirrors when it came to the RAI, a large part of the let down was the fans building the system up bigger then it was ever going to be even if they didn't remove some features from it.

I see that happen with Radiant Story as well, and post like this just make it very clear. From everything I head read regarding Radiant Story, it seems to me that its going to be a feature that will be all but invisible to the player on the first playthrough, and in order to appreciate it, your probably gonna have to play through it a few times. It also seems like its going to be quite static... lacking any sort of dynamic feel, or surprise to it. Basically it sounds, to me at least, like a system intended to make playing through the game again a little different, and not as repetitive. Yet some people seem to think its going to be some amazing feature that revolutionizes the TES series... and I imagine those people are going to be extremely disappointed, and feel lied to.

In the end, just as it was with Radiant AI, its all about perception. If you expect Radiant Story to be an amazing addition thats going to make or break Skyrim and you think its going to be 100% as awesome as the PR department makes it sound.... your setting yourself up for serious disappointment. If you expect it to be a neat, but not amazing feature that might help to make the game world feel less static and make playing the game again a bit different, then your probably going to be happy with it. At least that my opinion from my interpretation of how I feel the Radiant Story is going to play out, but even if the system is better then I think its going to be... people will ALWAYS feel they were lied to, and that it should be a lot better then it is.

I am sorry Silvade, I'm afraid I can't do that.

That video was such a blatant, staged lie that there's no way they didn't know what they were doing. The amount of absolute rubbish that was being said (and shown) before Oblivion was released was mindblowing. Lies that would make Peter Molyneux blush. It really bothers me how little they actually got called out for it.

There were so many broken promises when it came to the first Fable that the AI was the least of my concerns personally.... the game was pitched as Morrowind, but better. Instead it was a 3 hour long hack and slash that was nearly as linear as Call of Duty. So after that experience, when most developers tell me they are making a game, I really wonder if they actually are..

Seems more like fanciful thinking and a bunch of overhype, which kind if svcks considering it's the biggest new thing they're supposedly adding. A way to let players kill everyone while still getting quests is appreciated. And sending us off to places we haven't already ransacked is nice. More like a way of dealing with players being unpredictable, as all the fancier stuff will seems overly ambitious and at the same time incredibly vague for a game only ten months out.

I appreciate them being ambitious, which is why I'll buy TES games over the 50 millionth FPS that looks and plays like nearly every other one.

They may have failed, but at least they tried!

I do worry a bit about their radiant story, but I feel like much more of their changes to TES mechanics and new ideas for Skyrim make sense compared to Oblivion. It really does sound like they're putting a lot of effort and time on things players have asked for most - so I'm feeling optimistic(uncharacteristic of me) about Skyrim and radiant story.

well...i really dont think that bethesda will do it again.i think they learned there lesson.plus Oblivions raidiant AI thing wasnt complete [censored].npc's still had schedules

I trust Bethesda's judgment

I don't expect Bethesda to deliver Radiant AI as it was originally promised, I just expect a slightly better AI than the one in Oblivion. That is generally my whole approach to Skyrim; it's not gonna be mindblowing, but it might be just a little bit better than Oblivion.

I'm finding it hard to understand why some people think that Oblivions AI was great or even as some have said "revolutionary"..

I'm sorry, but it wasn't. Yeah the NPCs have scripted schedules and such but really it's not dynamic radiant AI as they had us believe.. it's also not the system they promised us for the entire time Oblivion was in development up until a month before release when they told us it wouldn't be included. People say it's because "it was too good, NPCs were doing all sorts of crazy things and it ruined the game" well uhh, I choose not to believe you. Where is the evidence that this sort of system EVER existed? Was there one video besides the E3 one showcasing this amazing radiant AI that causes towns to run out of food, NPCs to get stuck in jail, to murder each other and such? No there isn't.

Oblivions AI is mid-grade and that's being generous.. oh and don't even get me started on the actual combat AI (The part that matters most) because it was absolutely horrid.

I have great faith in Bethesda but when it comes to what Todd Howard has promised in Game Informer about radiant story? No, I choose not to believe a word of it.. As another poster said this is a video game not iRobot, the type of "radiant story" he has described is simply not going to happen because of technical limitations and the huge amount of work they would have to put into it (Recording the same voice lines for a quest with like 2-3 different people so if one is murdered another can pick it up and give it to you etc)

But I hope I'm proved wrong!

You are exactly the kind of person they make those videos for. Someone who is easily tricked and believes every convenient "issue" that prevents something from working the way they talked about. Basic Marketing 101. They make something sound a lot better than it is to get something out there, and then when it falls short they cover it up with something that sounds logical. Actually, most of Oblivion was created on that principal.

Much like Radiant AI, Radiant Story will be a fun little gimmick that falls far short of what we're lead to expect, and there will probably be another excuse for why it had to be so, and all the people that brushed off Radiant AI's blunders in hopes of Skyrim rectifying it with new Radiant AI and Radiant Story will do the same thing again looking toward TESVI. BGS doesn't have to worry about alienating them because they'll continue coming back with the same ridiculous hope stored up as before.

Me? I'll continue buying the games until the quality falls below the threshold of being worth it, but I'll probably continue to play Daggerfall and Morrowind more than whatever new one they come up with. And even then, I'll only continue with the series because I'm way overpaid and, while the quality of the games is declining quite noticeably, the games are still on par with all the other games that are out at any given time, and slightly longer lasting.

This.

I don't understand why people take it as Beth lied. Things change in development. If people knew how the NPCs malfunctioned, they wouldn't complain. I mean, the original radiant AI had one of the beggars was so hungry that he stole food and the guards attack and try to kill him, when the guards attack the beggar, the rest of the NPCs in the town attack the guards and it turns into a chain reaction that killed everything in the town. Now that it's 6 years later, they have had plenty of time to perfect the radiant AI.



And you have a very negative outlook on life. You think the big bad companies are out to get you and just want to lie to you at every turn.

With reference to the discussion of Radiant story in the GI article on Skyrim's technology, can you be more specific about what elements of Radiant story you find incredible, and why you find them incredible?

You have mentioned the store-keeper being replaced, and you getting the quest from the replacement NPC. And yes, this requires the game to have some redundancy, and there are space limitations (among other things, like making sure the new NPC has the appropriate disposition) . But this may not be all that common. It may not be that you can kill almost every NPC who has a quest to offer, and another NPC will fill her shoes and offer you that same quest. It might be fairly rare - and if you do kill a quest-related NPC, then tough, you've just lost that quest.

As for the other things, people have posted reasons why Radiant story wouldn't be all that hard to implement successfully.

I couldn't have said it better myself..



Sorry to burst your bubble bro but they are. Not out to get "you" but they are most certainly out to trick you into giving them the most money they can scrounge out of you.. as he said, Basic Marketing 101, go do a business class and look at the sort of tactics they teach you..

Bethesda cares much more about making money than they do "making a good game", Trust me on that.. that's coming from one of the biggest Bethesda [censored] you will ever meet so don't think I'm just being negative, just realistic.

What makes you think I have a negative outlook on life? TES =/= life. They're not out to get me, they're out to get my money. It's a business. My outlook on life is mostly positive, actually, and my current situation in life couldn't be better. Just because I'm pointing out that Skyrim will probably be worse than Oblivion doesn't mean I have a negative outlook on life. It means I'm a realist. I abide by the phrase "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I can't play Oblivion for more than an hour and HONESTLY feel like any thought or effort (or testing) was put into it. It feels so incomplete it's ridiculous. Morrowind and Daggerfall (Daggerfall especially) were bugged up the ass, but they were still solid experiences that kept you immersed when they weren't destroying themselves, and they were amazing experiences. Oblivion felt more like a medieval setting where you were the only human and everyone else was a terminator with faulty communication skills. It was just so lifeless and robotic. Always makes me laugh when Oblivion NPCs are brought up as an improvement to the series.

Err... folks, wanting to make money by making video games, and wanting to make good video games are not mutually exclusive. If anything, they're pretty closely correlated. And besides, if BGS wanted to make money above all else, do you really think they'd be developing open world RPGs which have a four or five year development cycle?

Who said they were mutually exclusive? gamesas is trying to make a good game while at the same time making that game seem as good as they can (even if they're lying, or at the very least, severely twisting the truth) and taking shortcuts. Basically they're trying to make a game that costs the least amount of effort and time and money without sacrificing audience, so once they hit the next milestone of sold copies, there's not going to be any extra effort to make the game better just because. That's a rare thing to see in games today. Once they hit their goal for predicted sales, it gets shoved out to market as fast as possible. That's why it's necessary for people to complain (despite all the [censored] with their "don't like it? gtfo" remarks) about the things they're doing. There needs to be pressure on the developer to not take these shortcuts, and that, even though they're gonna sugar coat the life out of their game before it's released, there are people are not fooled and not impressed by what they're doing. Does it have any effect? Not really, but it can't hurt to try.

EDIT: I'll continue this tomorrow. I have to be up in 4 hours so the Navy can pay me $2,000 a month to clean for a few hours a day and run a couple miles. But since I apparently have a negative outlook on life, that really svcks for me.

Yeah, Pilo_T pretty much covered everything and vaste more what this one would have said about RAI.

Oblivion's was nothing spectacular, other games like I said Gothic 3, did the same thing, and the handful of NPC's that walked around in Oblivion and did nothing greater are neglible such as not realising ones comrade is dead, or that fabled thread many years ago "oh look you killed my Husband, how nice" I'm sure Skyrim will Improve on these aspects when it arrives, like said I'm not passing judgement holding my breath or diving into the hype. If Skyrim is going to blow me away it doesn't need mental assitance on my part to do so

What do you expect? They're a business, its not like they're going to be honest with you. Why say the npc's have scripted lives they live when you could call it radient ai? At the same time, I dont' see a reason not to believe the ai is better than Oblivion. They improved it a lot just when they went to Fallout. Its a ballancing act, ya see. They can say anything they want till the cows come home, but as long as things improve a marginal amount from one game to the next, its not like it matters.

And ai in Oblivion was improved upon. Sure, the small amount of voices made a person want to scratch their eyes out, and we have all seen better looking npc's in game, and they didn't really have many lives. But at least they moved a little bit. Correct me if I am wrong but I remember many npcs in Morrowind whom had homes, yet they never even visited them. Robots are better than statues, in my honest opinion.

They're going to sell their product just like any other company would. But from my view point, the progresion from statue to robot means that they're leading us to the promissed land of radiant ai. The divines know Skyrim is going to have its quirks. To be honest, if it didnt it woudln't feel like a TES title to me. I'll play through them, wondering how that managed to stay in the game, and smile later when someone's come up with a clever comic making fun of it.