Anyone else think this "Radiant Story" feature is go

Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:50 pm

I'm pretty sure the deceased shopkeep was apart of another quest an got slain because of it and that the sister taking up the shop was scripted rather than being a random event that one can repeat consistently throughout the game, I'll wait when it's released to get a proper grasp of what's being offered.

I personally am refraining from reading to much into the features, certain threads talking about everyone being replaced by their siblings and siblings siblings were just beyond silly.

So wait, and see...


How do you know it's scripted?

But if it is then that just further cements my point, because he was listing it as a feature of radiant story not as a scripted event.
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gary lee
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:34 am

How do you know it's scripted?


You can see them developing the scenario in the Making of Oblivion video.
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Alexander Lee
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:45 am

Well now I had seen the video. Obviously it's scripted, but I don't think it's liying. They was showing in 6 minutes events that happens along the day (48 minutes).

I can see why they didn't include some of the features. If the same woman attacked that dog with other NPCs seeing it, it could lead to a battle.

Yes, the AI has been toned down, but not much.

By the way, in the beginning is said that they would be 9 main cities, the same way now say there will be 5 main cities. So the 5 main cities in Skyrim could have the size of the Oblivion ones (while villages are bigger).
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Rowena
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:23 am

I highly highly highly doubt they will make the same mistake twice. They most likely will only announce things now that are already implemented into the game and fully functional.
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Ridhwan Hemsome
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:55 am

I highly highly highly doubt they will make the same mistake twice. They most likely will only announce things now that are already implemented into the game and fully functional.

If the game is not finished, they can't be sure of future problems. The problem here is the need to give explanations before the project is finished.
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Javaun Thompson
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:25 am

I am a bit worried, but I think that the problem this time will be the Xbox 360. They have waited long enough that I feel fairly condifent that they have most of the core features figured out. But I worry that they will discover that they will have to tone the Radient Story down becuase they run out of space on the Xbox 360's disc. The Playstation 3 version can use a Blue-Ray, and that should be enough space for each voice actor to record a large set of backup lines in case a particular character gets a quest reassigned to them or a random quest generated for them. The same holds true for the PC where most people won't care if they have to install a second or thrid disc to get eveything in. Unless they are willing to have a second installed disc for the Xbox 360, I worry that this feature will end up having to be drastically toned down due to space limitations.
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Nicole Mark
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:54 am

I think Radiant Story sounds much more reasonable than what they said about Radiant AI before Oblivion came out. I can't imagine it's that hard to implement, while the too-good-to-be-true AI they promised for Oblivion would have been a milestone for artificial intelligence in computer games, better than anything ever seen in any other game. Radiant Story sounds like a nice feature, but it doesn't sound like Star Trek.
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stephanie eastwood
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:06 pm

Will see.It wont be any revolution thats for sure.
I hope we wont see any videos with burning dogs to demostrate how "cool" that radiant story is.
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elliot mudd
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:47 am

From reading what the feb game informer had in it, it seems veryyyy impressive, so impressive that I doubt whoever gave them the information was telling the truth or giving any/little factual information on the feature..

It basically said something like if you murder a shopkeeper in a village his sister/one of his family members will take over the store and will then perhaps offer you a quest that the one you murdered would have but instead will only do it in anger and extreme frustration because they can't find anyone else to do it.. It's thing like that I just can't believe, it means they would have to completely re-record that npc's voice acting for that specific quest with a "angry tone" in mind for when that situation happens.. it's not logical..


Nothing impressive there:
Radiant Story: is there someone marked as a relative who could inherit? If yes, change the AI package. If not, randomly generate an NPC with similar package and a reason why he is there.

What is impressive about Radiant Story is how it connects your character's actions, NPC's and before finished quests. However, the complexity of this does make me wonder if it will be work to its full potential. However, this late in development I am more ready to believe said info.
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Solène We
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:37 am

I think Radiant Story sounds much more reasonable than what they said about Radiant AI before Oblivion came out. I can't imagine it's that hard to implement, while the too-good-to-be-true AI they promised for Oblivion would have been a milestone for artificial intelligence in computer games, better than anything ever seen in any other game. Radiant Story sounds like a nice feature, but it doesn't sound like Star Trek.


Exactly. To be honest I consider AI possibly the hardest technical feature to implement and get right. I don't expect Skyrim to be nowhere near what they promised for Oblivion, but I expect it to be way ahead than what Oblivion actually offered.
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Miragel Ginza
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:47 am

Well the thing is Todd (he was presenting it at the time) wasn't lying.

he said

We're going to show what is Capable with RAI, not what is already in the game. and he's correct. I have NPC tweaks that serve my grounds in Oblivion, they go out collect alchemical ingrediants and leave them in a repository for me, and sell excess weapons I leave in a box, when the box is empty and im around the area they come to me a remind me of the crap Im hauling so I can give to them and deliver.

I've an NPC orb (courtesy of Midas Magic) that appears to me when Im low on health and heals me, problem is its hilariously bright, so if im sneaking to get away and it comes, I get the health and all the enemies in the dungeon.


I await to the mischief I can get in Skyrim. just wait :D
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Michelle davies
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:13 pm

I remember watching that trailer and was completely blown away, but it was mysteriously missing in the game I bought. Doubt we will see that level of RAI in Skyrim either. Level might be the wrong word... that kind of RAI is probably more suitable. Anyway, I'm sure there will be improvements but not to that degree.

Was there anyone else who reacted to the multi branched conversation when re-watching the trailer?
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gary lee
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:21 pm

lol i remember one of the problems they had with the radiant ai.

there was a quest where you had to break into jail and get info from a prisoner but whenever they went in there he would be dead thus breaking the quest. after a few days of digging they discovered that the guards would run out of food and then kill the prisoner for a apple and a hunk of cheese in his inventory. their solution was to give the guards more food.

so yeah i can see why they would have pulled it with things like that happening and not being able to find every single miss-hap with the ai. but as said they have had about 6 years to iron it out more so im not really worried about it.

the only wtf issue i have with that video though is WHY THE HELL DID THEY CHANGE THE DARK ELF VOICES!!!!!!!!! they had it right in the video why change it?
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Austin England
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:20 am

You can see them developing the scenario in the Making of Oblivion video.


Uhh what are you talking about man? The example of the shop keeper I was talking about was from an article in the February issue of game informer about SKYRIM not about Oblivion or any video..?

Well now I had seen the video. Obviously it's scripted, but I don't think it's liying. They was showing in 6 minutes events that happens along the day (48 minutes).

I can see why they didn't include some of the features. If the same woman attacked that dog with other NPCs seeing it, it could lead to a battle.

Yes, the AI has been toned down, but not much.

By the way, in the beginning is said that they would be 9 main cities, the same way now say there will be 5 main cities. So the 5 main cities in Skyrim could have the size of the Oblivion ones (while villages are bigger).

It's not "Some of the features" they didn't include, they completely did not include the original radiant AI system that they were talking about for months before Oblivion came out.. I suppose you had to be there? It would be much easier for you to understand if you had been around when Oblivion was leading up to release and all this information was coming out.. just trust me, they promised a completely different system to what we got and waited until the very last minute to tell us radiant AI in the game wasn't the system we had been being told about for months.


I am a bit worried, but I think that the problem this time will be the Xbox 360. They have waited long enough that I feel fairly condifent that they have most of the core features figured out. But I worry that they will discover that they will have to tone the Radient Story down becuase they run out of space on the Xbox 360's disc. The Playstation 3 version can use a Blue-Ray, and that should be enough space for each voice actor to record a large set of backup lines in case a particular character gets a quest reassigned to them or a random quest generated for them. The same holds true for the PC where most people won't care if they have to install a second or thrid disc to get eveything in. Unless they are willing to have a second installed disc for the Xbox 360, I worry that this feature will end up having to be drastically toned down due to space limitations.

I totally agree, I'm very sad that a new batch of consoles hasn't come out yet.. It's limiting games for the PC so much and it makes me very sad :( Think of how awesome a elder scrolls designed solely for PC would be.. most likely a map 3-5 times bigger than what we will see in Skyrim, graphics twice as good, MUCH better AI, so much more content.. it really saddens me that the 5 year old consoles hold gaming back so much..

Nothing impressive there:
Radiant Story: is there someone marked as a relative who could inherit? If yes, change the AI package. If not, randomly generate an NPC with similar package and a reason why he is there.

What is impressive about Radiant Story is how it connects your character's actions, NPC's and before finished quests. However, the complexity of this does make me wonder if it will be work to its full potential. However, this late in development I am more ready to believe said info.


Uhh man it's not as easy as just "Changing the AI Package" as you put it..

For a relative of the NPC that has been murdered to inherit the quest and be able to give it to you they would need all of the voice work of the NPC you murdered, meaning the same lines would have to be recorded multiple times for the same quest so that it can be given if certain NPCs die. They would have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in hiring voice talent to do this for every quest in the game.. it's just not logical and I doubt what Todd said in the new issue of GI has any substance behind it really.. He seems to be blowing a whole lot of hype smoke.
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Judy Lynch
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:46 am

I'm an optimist, I don't worry about these things. I've already crossed my fingers and hoping for the best. I think the Radiant story is much more plausible that Radiant AI, because of the technology and the new developers on Bethesda's platform.
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Gemma Archer
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:47 pm

To be fair, Oblivion AI is not that bad, the background NPCs in DA:O and mass effect don't even move from the spot. It just didn't live up to expectation. Hopefully Beth are clued up enough to know their claims spoiled what in actuality was fairly impressive, and won't repeat the mistake of over hyping what should be an improvement on this. Then again Fable keeps selling despite the, erm, over-exaggeration so perhaps that's the industry model these days.
Whatever, it's not sensible to believe hype and advertising, judge it for yourself in november, and don't let expectations and promises spoil you enjoyment, take it on it's own merits.
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He got the
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:06 am

I am not worried. And no one should be.


Not really, I am still worried. It might flop again (hopefully not). Let us not forget these posts:

Spoiler
[Kathode] "All screenshots we've released are 100% in game showing stuff we've already got implemented. We haven't done any special poses or anything like that, with the exception of magazine covers."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I'm sorry, but what part of "without losing our hardcoe rpg fans" don't you understand?"

[Slateman] "Each of the faction lines in this game have plots and quests to much greater depth over MW. Quality, not quantity."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I know you don't want to hear it, but you're just going to have to trust us that the dialogue is better than Morrowind's."

[Todd] "As you play, you start to figure out what you can do with these NPCs, and how you can influence their behavior, and when doing a quest, it really comes into play. A simple 'get the diamond from that guy...' quest can be done in hundreds of ways now."

[VSXX] "We have everything from mice to moles to crickets. The most fearsome you have ever seen even! You thought sleeping at night with a singing cricket outside your window was bad. You wait till you meet the one that plays a 14 piece drum set outside your window."

[Pete] "Honestly, and this is just my opinion, I think the hardcoe RPG guys are going to love what we have in store for them in Oblivion. The depth, the level of polish...it crushes Morrowind. That doesn't mean that other people won't want to buy it and play it because it's a beautiful game that has fun combat and cool quests. We'll make enough copies for everyone."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You'll be reading LOTS of stuff. All of the quest lines are much more in depth, challenging and interesting. And there's a heck of a lot more to the game than just the guilds and the main quest. Lots and lots of other things to do that haven't been mentioned. Stats play a huge, huge role. Class actually has meaning this time. The game is better balanced. You have more rewards for advancement besides just getting better at things. The dungeons are better designed, the NPCs are more interesting, the dialogue is better written.

If you think this is a simple, dumbed down hack & slash, you couldn't be more wrong."

[BlueDev] "For Oblivion, there's a very concious effort to avoid too much random information spewing by NPCs. Fear not--there's still the same amount of info to be found in the game. In fact, the NPCs probably have more than ever to say; it just makes more sense for them to say it."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is infinitely superior to Morrowind in every conceivable way."

[MattRyan] "So for all of you thinking that it would be neat to steal something, and then take off on your horse....guess what? An NPC can do the same dirty trick to you as well. "

[Todd] "The clothing you wear does affect certain NPC's, but not in a big way, ita€?s subtle."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Broken shields and weapons are automatically dropped and they clatter to the ground using Havok physics. Broken armor stays on, but is ineffective and you'll know if you're wearing broken armor or not."

[Slateman] "While I cannot go into detail, rest assured that even players who max out a bunch of skills will discover challenges in this game. We didn't leave you guys out "

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Just because you can attempt to bribe someone does not mean they'll automatically accept it."

[MattRyan] "We are gamers. We have given tons of time toward the balance of gameplay. Asside from the designers, artists, programmers, and producers.... our staff of QA testers are extremely good at exploiting our game systems and looking for loopholes in gameplay, or shortfalls in fun vs. realism.

In conclusion, to completely cut out any adjustment to difficulty in enemies would not be fun, just as making all creatures off-set to your level would not be fun."

[Slateman] "Yep. To second MSFD, we don't auto-level exactly to your level. We have all sorts of adjustments available. If we didn't the game would be boring "

[MattRyan] "If everything was leveled then you'd have no fear of anything in the game ('I can beat everything!') We plan on scaring the heck out of the player by higher level creatures."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You're walking through a seedy part of a town in Western Cyrodiil. People mill about, some engaged in conversation, others minding their own business, out on their own errands. Suddenly, an ugly man decides he doesn't like you. Maybe he's drunk, maybe he's just a bully, maybe he's just showing off in front of his friends -- but for whatever reason, he has taken your measure and decided he can best you.

He comes charging at you, with a nasty looking mace in his hand and a look of hatred on his face. Onlookers move back to make room for what should be an entertaining fight.

Quickly drawing your sword and shield, you wheel around to face him. He's upon you pretty quickly though, and you barely have time to raise your shield (hold right mouse button) before his first blow thunders down upon you.

But you block well, and as he recoils from the collision, you quickly perform left & right slashes with your sword (left click, pause, left click). The bully realizes this isn't going to be easy.

He backs off a bit, and starts dodging around you. First to the left, then to the right. You maneuver to keep him in view, looking for an opening. Suddenly he steps back, raises his mace in both hands, and steps forward, bringing the mace towards your head in a crushing blow!

But you're quick -- you step to the side as he attacks. As he passes by, you execute a spinning maneuver and slash him in the side (hold left mouse button and left maneuver key). The hit is solid, and your foe staggers from the blow.

But it's not over yet. The bully swings his mace wildly -- his first swing misses, but the next one connects for a blow that sends you staggering. Pressing his advantage, the bully bears down on you with a power attack of his own. OUCH. This isn't going well. You take a glance at your health meter, it's getting a bit low. You quickly back up out of the bully's reach and raise your shield (hold right mouse button).

He's hurting, too. You circle each other for a time, looking for an opening, trying to recover some fatigue. Finally the bully charges forward with a devastating overhead blow, perhaps hoping to break your shield. But the shield holds and the recoil send him staggering back. This is your chance! You perform a mighty forward power attack (hold the left mouse button, press forward) and connect solidly. The blow staggers your foe once again, and you perform 3 slashing attacks in rapid succession (left mouse button, pause, left mouse button, pause, left mouse button), and finally the bully collapses to the ground, defeated.

The crowd disperses, going back to their own business."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We happen to think that console gamers are smarter than that, and the success of Morrowind on Xbox proves that console gamers actually ARE interested in games with MORE depth and complexity than some people seem to think they are."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "I absolutely guarantee that they'll be able to make mods that will completely blow away anything we saw for Morrowind, using the new Construction Set."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "You can only use the map-based fast travel to go to places you've already been. So you'll HAVE to walk to each possible location AT LEAST once."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We could make traditional creatures that looked like every other depiction of those creatures you've seen in books, movies, or other games, but then where's the originality in that?"

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "NPCs would have to be told to go into your house via Radiant AI. And even if they WERE, you could always lock your door..."

[Slateman] "Trust me, you're going to get lost if you wander in these forests and don't use the compass or map."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "you can enter every interior."

[Pete] "There isn't a magazine on the planet that hasn't gotten information if they've asked for it."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Resurrected NPCs are not themselves. They're basically mindless automata who will follow you around and fight for you."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is an extremely rich, complex game with a tremendous amount of depth, compelling quest lines, interesting NPC characters, a huge variety of player character types and intricate character progression set in a huge, varied game world. Combat, magic, and AI have all been dramatically improved to enhance gameplay while still providing a balance between player skill and character skill, because after all, Oblivion is a role playing game. Yes, some things that were present in Morrowind are not in Oblivion -- but a lot more has been added than removed, and the goal has always been to make a game that is both more accessible to first-time RPG players, and is also challenging and rewarding for more experienced players."

[Pete] "We will continue to support the mod community as best we can and let them do the great things they do, just as we did with Morrowind."

[Sentinel] "The sad fact is that many development studios can't afford to bankroll their own game development. So they rely on publishers to give them the money to create these games. The problem with this is that the publisher then feels they should have input into the game since they are spending the money. Hence Atari and EA have such a big influence on a game they publish.

Just glad here at Bethesda we are our own publisher and developer and have free reign to make what we want."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "We're NOT going to slap in features that don't work well just to say we have them."

[Pete] "Holidays this year"

[Pete] "You know if you have a 360 it will look as good as it can possibly look. If you have the latest, greatest PC with the best video card, etc., it will probably look the same as the Xbox 360 version."

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "The compass, the quest marker and compass icons, are NOT the hand-holding, dumbing down babysitter some folks paint them out to be."

[Hayt] "We're around on a daily basis, and we're reading. When we're ready to comment on things, you'll all know."


[WARNING: Long post]

Some of them were true, most of the others were laughable.
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Rob Davidson
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:05 pm

To be fair, Oblivion AI is not that bad, the background NPCs in DA:O and mass effect don't even move from the spot. It just didn't live up to expectation. Hopefully Beth are clued up enough to know their claims spoiled what in actuality was fairly impressive, and won't repeat the mistake of over hyping what should be an improvement on this. Then again Fable keeps selling despite the, erm, over-exaggeration so perhaps that's the industry model these days.
Whatever, it's not sensible to believe hype and advertising, judge it for yourself in november, and don't let expectations and promises spoil you enjoyment, take it on it's own merits.



I agree, I don`t think it`s that bad but then I never bought into the original hype too much even though I watched the NPC with dog video etc. I think BGS would be making a really stupid move if they gave us examples of the AI this time around and then didn`t produce the good upon release. I`m just glad we have a new beautiful, open world fantasy game (with Dragons!) coming out in November. How much we roleplay will really be down to our own imaginations and can`t really be blamed upon BGS because of stats, skills etc.

TW2 has terrible AI...walk around the (tiny) number of towns and watch as NPC`s jerk around in circles etc. Thank god TES games are way better than that!

I think TES fans are a bit spoiled in some ways. We expect. We demand. We shout and Cry if something dosen`t sound like our expectations.

I feel sorry for BGS ;)
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victoria johnstone
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:31 am

[MrSmileyFaceDude] "Oblivion is an extremely rich, complex game with a tremendous amount of depth, compelling quest lines, interesting NPC characters, a huge variety of player character types and intricate character progression set in a huge, varied game world. Combat, magic, and AI have all been dramatically improved to enhance gameplay while still providing a balance between player skill and character skill, because after all, Oblivion is a role playing game. Yes, some things that were present in Morrowind are not in Oblivion -- but a lot more has been added than removed, and the goal has always been to make a game that is both more accessible to first-time RPG players, and is also challenging and rewarding for more experienced players."


I agreed.
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Adriana Lenzo
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:46 pm

Thoughts? Opinions?


To me, "Radiant storytelling" sounds like an advertisemant of more levelscaling (I mean, they are not going to randomly give level 20 quests to a level 3 character, not a chance) wrapped in a nice giftpaper. And there is a genuine concern that they cut back again when they realize that their "nice on paper" system fails in practice. I believe it works when I experience it, and I won't be surprised (or overly disappointed either) if it turns out to be much less than how it is advertised. I do hope they manage to do it well, though.
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Sanctum
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:33 am

I agreed.


That's one of the subjective ones (which I don't agree with). Others are stated facts which ended up to not be true at all.
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Becky Palmer
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:37 am

I'm not worried.

Beth had to tone down the Radiant A.I. in Oblivion, and it upset quite a few people. THIS is why they waited so long to announce the game. So the features they talked about wouldn't get cut. If Radiant story had not worked perfectly by the announcement date, then I bet they wouldn't have mentioned it. They learned from Oblivion.
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Chantel Hopkin
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:02 pm

There will be inconsistencies, there will be repetition, there will be things that make us go WTF. This is sure.

They will not tell us it's going to be very repetitive after 100 hours of questing, they're not gonna tell us the defects right away. This is sure.

if you're expecting perfect, varied ai that never burps out unrealistic things, correct yuorselves. this isn't iRobot, it's real life. tech just ain't there yet.

I have confidence the new AI will be better than Oblivion, but i am also sure it will get repetitive after a while, people will share rumors as the building behind them burns after a dragon attack.
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Tha King o Geekz
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:10 am

I do have doubts about this new system as Oblivions fabled RAI was nothing like it was advertised to be. And for me it wasn't even close to what Gothic (game from 2001!) did with its scripted NPC schedules. If choice is between RAI of Oblivion or Gothic 1 scripting, scripting would win hands down as it at least resulted in more immersive world! But I do hope this time Bethesda actually delivers what they advertise as it sounds great and it would be extremely stupid for them to have another RAI fiasco.
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Ashley Tamen
 
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Post » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:44 pm

Frankly I don't think we know enough about how the Skyrim Radiant AI and Radiant Storytelling is going to work to judge it.

Worrying that it will svck is a defeatism stance that I refuse to take, I would rather fill my glass half-full and give Bethesda the benefit of the doubt until we see it ourselves.

Oblivion AI in it's day was ground-breaking, even if it wasn't as "smart" as the HAL-9000 supercomputer and not perfect - it was very advanced. It will never satisfy everyone, but I'm willing to bet lunch in Manhattan that it will Rock.

Keep the Faith.

Miax
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Rhysa Hughes
 
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