Anyone else worried about the UI?

Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:47 am

I'm a bit worried about the interface. If you haven't yet, read http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx article about the UI on the Game Informer website. Quote from Todd Howard:

One of our goals was 'What if Apple made a fantasy game? How would this look?' It's very good at getting through lots of data quickly, which is always a struggle with our stuff.


Now Apple has a stylish interface that looks cool and it certainly is a good approach for browsing through a few dozen music albums on a tiny iPhone/iPod screen quickly. But for a fantasy RPG with a large amount of statistics like skills and hundreds of inventory items on a large screen? Not suited for that imo. There is a reason why those old, oh so boring lists are still in use everywhere and were not replaced by Apple's fancy looking toggle interface.

Just look at the skill screenshot (which is, as far as I know, the only menu mode screenshot available so far). It looks stylish, but almost all of the screen space is wasted and you can't get an overview about all your skills quickly. Instead you have to toggle through them one by one.

According to the GI article you can assume that the inventory will look similar to the skill menu on the screenshot. You choose a category (like weapons) and then you'll see a row of items with one item highlighted in the middle and a few other items left and right of it. Instead of the star constellation on the skill screen you'll see a 3D view of the item. Now you can toggle through the items to the left or to the right. This, in my opinion, svcks.

A list is clean and it shows the largest amount of information on the smallest space possible. For console users it wouldn't make that much of a difference maybe (judging from Oblivion's oversized primary school type default inventory), but on PC with a high resolution and a 21" monitor it is simply a chore to play with an Apple type interface. Again judging from the screenshot you won't be able to see more than 7 items at once on the screen and again almost all of the space available would be wasted for a nice background and a fancy 3D view of the items that I don't care about. Instead of getting a quick overview over all your items (or at least a large amount) with all the stats right next to them you'd have to browse endlessly through a fancy row of 3D items.

To me this sounds like the UI would become even more consolified than Oblivion's, and this time it will probably be much harder to fix it. I don't mean to offend console users by saying this, it's just that a console user usually sits far away from his television and plays at a relatively low resolution so the inventory has to be large and clearly visible even under these circumstances. The Apple type interface might make (at least a bit of) sense in that case, but for PC players it looks and sounds pretty horrible imo.
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Timara White
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:21 am

I don't think we've really seen enough to make a sound judgment. I hear your concerns, but personally I think they always realized the clunkiness of past menu UI's and the one in Skyrim sounds like an area of focused improvement.
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Crystal Birch
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:50 am

What is wrong with 'those old, boring lists' ?

I love them.
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Bek Rideout
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:35 pm

We really haven't seen enough to make consumptions.
We've seen exactly one XBox360 pic so far.
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Ownie Zuliana
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:33 am

I'm leery of anything designed with a mantra that starts: "What if Apple..."

edit:
I suppose I should capitalize "Apple".
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Tikarma Vodicka-McPherson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:44 am

Objects in inventory will be 3D instead of a simple icon. zoom, rotate and manipulate 3D puzzles. So the new interface gets my vote.
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Jeffrey Lawson
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:46 am

What you see http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Components-SiteFiles-imagefeed-featured-bethesda-elderscrolls-elderscrollsv/SkillsMenu.jpg_2D00_610x0.jpg is the skill tree. We could still be seeing "those good ol' lists" in the inventory menu. So patience, time will reveal all...
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sam westover
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:17 pm

I don't like the pointy skill bars. They look sci-fi.
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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:38 pm

I don't like the pointy skill bars. They look sci-fi.

That is true. I don't like them as well. Hope they change them before release :rolleyes:
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Trent Theriot
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:05 pm

Oblivion was fine, Morrowinds svcked! I'd hardly say the inventory was any good at all in Morrowind, it takes for ever to go through all the tiny pieces that I can't see to have a name pop up. Oblivions way of inventory could be added, but I quess BGS wants to try something new and fancy. Like a kid when he finds something cool. :)
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Jonathan Egan
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:39 am

Yeah the interactive user interface seems to be the trend these days. I never had a problem with the list format. In fable III the interactive UI (i.e. the santuary), was cool at firts but got annoying after a while. Until we recieve more info and see the UI in use, I can't pass any judgement on it. For me the make or break for the new UI will be the functionality of the inventory section....and we haven't even seen a screenshot of it yet. Still too early.

Worrying is wasteful.
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Daddy Cool!
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:18 pm

Thing is, the skill tree would be a prime place to use a list format, if you can't fit a measly 18 progress bars within the space of the screen at once, you're doing something wrong.
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Anna Krzyzanowska
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:01 am

No.
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Claudz
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:46 am

"I don't like CHAAAANGE!"
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ONLY ME!!!!
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:52 am

"I don't like CHAAAANGE!"


I see and hear this said of people who voice concern over things all the time. People need to understand there's good change and bad change though. Reducing functionality in favor or flashy graphics would qualify as bad change.
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Bones47
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:38 am

I'm a bit worried about the interface. If you haven't yet, read http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx article about the UI on the Game Informer website. Quote from Todd Howard:



Now Apple has a stylish interface that looks cool and it certainly is a good approach for browsing through a few dozen music albums on a tiny iPhone/iPod screen quickly. But for a fantasy RPG with a large amount of statistics like skills and hundreds of inventory items on a large screen? Not suited for that imo. There is a reason why those old, oh so boring lists are still in use everywhere and were not replaced by Apple's fancy looking toggle interface.

Just look at the skill screenshot (which is, as far as I know, the only menu mode screenshot available so far). It looks stylish, but almost all of the screen space is wasted and you can't get an overview about all your skills quickly. Instead you have to toggle through them one by one.

According to the GI article you can assume that the inventory will look similar to the skill menu on the screenshot. You choose a category (like weapons) and then you'll see a row of items with one item highlighted in the middle and a few other items left and right of it. Instead of the star constellation on the skill screen you'll see a 3D view of the item. Now you can toggle through the items to the left or to the right. This, in my opinion, svcks.

A list is clean and it shows the largest amount of information on the smallest space possible. For console users it wouldn't make that much of a difference maybe (judging from Oblivion's oversized primary school type default inventory), but on PC with a high resolution and a 21" monitor it is simply a chore to play with an Apple type interface. Again judging from the screenshot you won't be able to see more than 7 items at once on the screen and again almost all of the space available would be wasted for a nice background and a fancy 3D view of the items that I don't care about. Instead of getting a quick overview over all your items (or at least a large amount) with all the stats right next to them you'd have to browse endlessly through a fancy row of 3D items.

To me this sounds like the UI would become even more consolified than Oblivion's, and this time it will probably be much harder to fix it. I don't mean to offend console users by saying this, it's just that a console user usually sits far away from his television and plays at a relatively low resolution so the inventory has to be large and clearly visible even under these circumstances. The Apple type interface might make (at least a bit of) sense in that case, but for PC players it looks and sounds pretty horrible imo.


people is getting worried about evry thing and i hate that

well the UI in OBLIVIOn was pretty but also was USELESS it was to complex, we need A LOT of time to undersatand it, thats why todd says: "comprehensive menus are a necessary evil. Though they may not be pretty, players need a way to easily manage items, review skills, and map out directions to their next dungeon crawls."

IT MEANS maybe now the UI will be UGLY BUT IT WILL BE EASY TO MANAGE AND UNDERSTAND.

SO you can sleep now
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Yung Prince
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:43 am

I'm with Phitt on this.

There's a big difference between lists of arbitrary size, like inventory, where a small window of the content can be shown at one time so you need to scroll, and the fixed-sized lists of skills etc. where a better UI can display them all at once. Where categories exist (again the inventory has that) then sub-lists that can be expended or collapsed, or tabs, are preferable to an endless scroll.

If they're really learning from Apple, they need to look at the "suitability of purpose" of the UI. What does the user need to see, rather than what eye-candy can they add. When you're scrolling through albums, the cover art is important to recognition of the entry, with Oblivion skills, the icon is a total waste of space,as there are so few and the name is more relevant.

Layout of UI elements can be very important. The vertical alignment of the progress bars in Oblivion let you visually compare them, this layout makes that impossible (and many are off-screen anyway). You can easily lose "summary" information in this way. A glance at the Oblivion screen tells me if I'm about to level up (which is not just the overall level bar, although that's part of it), the Skyrim one will make me scroll around.
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Da Missz
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:25 am

I am not to concerned about the menu. I never understood why people were so put off with having to scroll through to see all your skills. I just don't get why that is a problem. The only thing I can recall disliking about the UI was how damn large everything was when on the PC. However now that it seems like they have a dedicated PC UI I think things will be much better. The graphical style also sounds very nice and I am looking forward to it.
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Harry Hearing
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:23 pm

Eh, it looks better than vanilla Oblivion did, sitting half a meter away from the screen. Can't say I'd judge the UI from one screen.
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IM NOT EASY
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:37 am

I see and hear this said of people who voice concern over things all the time. People need to understand there's good change and bad change though. Reducing functionality in favor or flashy graphics would qualify as bad change.


We have one screen and a single developer quote to go on. We know next to nothing about it yet. Voicing concerns is fine, but doing so when we don't have any info is pointless.
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Genevieve
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:24 am

We really haven't seen enough to make consumptions.
We've seen exactly one XBox360 pic so far.


What you see http://www.gameinformer.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-ImageFileViewer/CommunityServer-Components-SiteFiles-imagefeed-featured-bethesda-elderscrolls-elderscrollsv/SkillsMenu.jpg_2D00_610x0.jpg is the skill tree. We could still be seeing "those good ol' lists" in the inventory menu. So patience, time will reveal all...


Yeah the interactive user interface seems to be the trend these days. I never had a problem with the list format. In fable III the interactive UI (i.e. the santuary), was cool at firts but got annoying after a while. Until we recieve more info and see the UI in use, I can't pass any judgement on it. For me the make or break for the new UI will be the functionality of the inventory section....and we haven't even seen a screenshot of it yet. Still too early.

Worrying is wasteful.


I think there is enough information in the GI article and in the interviews with Todd Howard to assume the inventory will look similar to the skill screen. I can't remember where, but I'm pretty sure he said somewhere that they got rid of the lists and replaced them with a more 'comprehensive' system (if anyone finds that info please link). And he said 'what would Apple do', not only for the skill menu, but for all the menus. Apple wouldn't make a list like in Oblivion (but Apple doesn't make fantasy RPGs, so who knows). It also wouldn't make sense if one part of the menu would be completely different from all the other parts, like an Apple type browse system for skills, but good old lists for inventory objects. The 3D view of the items would also fit perfectly where the star constellations are. So it's not just unfounded speculation.

people is getting worried about evry thing and i hate that

well the UI in OBLIVIOn was pretty but also was USELESS it was to complex, we need A LOT of time to undersatand it, thats why todd says: "comprehensive menus are a necessary evil. Though they may not be pretty, players need a way to easily manage items, review skills, and map out directions to their next dungeon crawls."

IT MEANS maybe now the UI will be UGLY BUT IT WILL BE EASY TO MANAGE AND UNDERSTAND.

SO you can sleep now


People like you take everything for granted and just assume that Bethesda will make everything perfect. That they don't make perfect games can be seen by simply looking at Oblivion's ridiculous leveling system or all the horrible exploits in Morrowind. And lots of other things. I think it's a bit weird that there is always a bunch of super fans who feel like someone attacked them personally only because he/she expressed a well-founded concern. And how was Oblivion's UI pretty, but useless? To me it was ugly, but useful (with Darn UI at least). And certainly not hard to undersatand.
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T. tacks Rims
 
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Post » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:43 pm

I'm a bit worried about the interface. If you haven't yet, read http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/28/skyrim-menu-system-overhaul.aspx article about the UI on the Game Informer website. Quote from Todd Howard:



Now Apple has a stylish interface that looks cool and it certainly is a good approach for browsing through a few dozen music albums on a tiny iPhone/iPod screen quickly. But for a fantasy RPG with a large amount of statistics like skills and hundreds of inventory items on a large screen? Not suited for that imo. There is a reason why those old, oh so boring lists are still in use everywhere and were not replaced by Apple's fancy looking toggle interface.

Just look at the skill screenshot (which is, as far as I know, the only menu mode screenshot available so far). It looks stylish, but almost all of the screen space is wasted and you can't get an overview about all your skills quickly. Instead you have to toggle through them one by one.

According to the GI article you can assume that the inventory will look similar to the skill menu on the screenshot. You choose a category (like weapons) and then you'll see a row of items with one item highlighted in the middle and a few other items left and right of it. Instead of the star constellation on the skill screen you'll see a 3D view of the item. Now you can toggle through the items to the left or to the right. This, in my opinion, svcks.

A list is clean and it shows the largest amount of information on the smallest space possible. For console users it wouldn't make that much of a difference maybe (judging from Oblivion's oversized primary school type default inventory), but on PC with a high resolution and a 21" monitor it is simply a chore to play with an Apple type interface. Again judging from the screenshot you won't be able to see more than 7 items at once on the screen and again almost all of the space available would be wasted for a nice background and a fancy 3D view of the items that I don't care about. Instead of getting a quick overview over all your items (or at least a large amount) with all the stats right next to them you'd have to browse endlessly through a fancy row of 3D items.

To me this sounds like the UI would become even more consolified than Oblivion's, and this time it will probably be much harder to fix it. I don't mean to offend console users by saying this, it's just that a console user usually sits far away from his television and plays at a relatively low resolution so the inventory has to be large and clearly visible even under these circumstances. The Apple type interface might make (at least a bit of) sense in that case, but for PC players it looks and sounds pretty horrible imo.

Hopefully the menu doesn't revolve around lame inefficient horizontal lists. If it does, let's hope that customization lets modders fix it, and let's hope the people that want to fix it know Adobe Flash (which the in game menu system uses).

The console reason isn't quite true either. Games like Final Fantasy have used lists since the NES era without issue.
Examples on the SNES:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090601224720/finalfantasy/images/archive/9/9b/20090710124324!FF_VI_screen_menu.jpg
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/7464/671528-final_fantasy_iii.027_super.png
http://dreadfulimages.serveftp.net/uploads/Rath/FFV2/Final%20Fantasy%205%20Advance_74.png
http://www.ffinsider.net/final-fantasy-4/pix/equip.png
etc...
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Julie Ann
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:54 am

The problem is that what works well on the consoles and what works well on the PC are different. It would be best if they had two different menu systems (maybe with an option to toggle) one designed for the consoles and one for the PC. The PC players are justifiably worried that they will go all out to optimize the menu system for the consoles and leave a clumsy mess for computer players.
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katsomaya Sanchez
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:34 am

I'm not worried about the UI, but I do hope they give us lots of numbers and stats. :woot: I wonder how we're going to see the enemy's health though, since there has been nothing (AFAIK) said about that.
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Riky Carrasco
 
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Post » Sat Feb 19, 2011 7:23 am

People like you take everything for granted and just assume that Bethesda will make everything perfect. That they don't make perfect games can be seen by simply looking at Oblivion's ridiculous leveling system or all the horrible exploits in Morrowind. And lots of other things. I think it's a bit weird that there is always a bunch of super fans who feel like someone attacked them personally only because he/she expressed a well-founded concern. And how was Oblivion's UI pretty, but useless? To me it was ugly, but useful (with Darn UI at least). And certainly not hard to undersatand.


I don't think they make everything perfect. Heh, I know they don't, but I really don't care much. I hate menu's in general. They're a necessary evil in my book. I rarely use them, if ever. Just to ocationally check my current skill levels and change my gear. So they could make the stupidest menu in the history of the electronic age, and it wouldn't bother me.

As for the leveling system in Oblivion, I liked it. It was comical to me. Sure, if you take it seriously it was dumb, but if you played a long with it, it was half way entertaining. Its not that I think what Beth makes is perfect, its the exact oposite. I know they make mistakes, and it isn't going to be perfect. That way, I can enjoy the game for what it is, instead of only seeing the flaws.
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Jessica Thomson
 
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