Indeed.
I miss it.

People should stop saying feature a or b was horrible, when all that was going on is that it was horrible in Oblivion, often due to the awful, awful level scaling.

Damn.... You'd rather I killed myself because you don't agree with my views on a VIDEO GAME MECHANIC?

You sir, are a sad sad person.

In my proposed resurrection of a degradation system , you don't repair anything unless you've improved it. Hence why I say in my post "back to basic, vanilla stats. As in when you acquired them. It doesn't level smithing, since repair would only be for people that smithed anyway.

As it stands, stacking smithing, enchanting, and alchemy is the only way to get a good damage output on higher difficulties. If anything, the damage options that are excluded by this technique should be given a buff.

I use them. I enjoy them. I don't care beyond that.

If someone wants to be a demi-god in his game, well, that's his game. What does it have to do with me?

Why should how someone plays his game have any significance whatsoever to me? I couldn't possibly care less about it.

I spend my time playing the game, not abusing exploits.

It's a funny, crazy idea, I know. I wonder if anyone else has heard of it.

Didn't they just say in the Beth blog that they're going to do some balancing acts?

And don't I get why people keep mentioning MMO's all the time. It's a singleplayer game were talking about, these discussions have nothing to do with MMO's (gameplay balance is not an MMO exclusive). And a singleplayer game which has balance issues -- it's not unheard, not something never happened before, and most definitely not something that specifically should not be fixed.

You're right, my gaming experience should be affected because of game mechanics that can be controlled and manipulated to any standard by anyone. Ok :no:

There are others here who obviously don't play the game the way you do and enjoy smithing and enchanting. People who thought it would be fun to pursue those two skill lines. However, in normal use of the two skill lines with zero exploitation involved --> Doing absolutely nothing outside of normal limits of the game. Using the system exactly as it was designed. <-- the single challenging aspect of the game (combat) becomes skewed to the point of being inconsequential. If for example someone used one handed weapons which worked as intended but there were also two handed weapons which did twenty times as much damage and one shot all enemies. Should everyone who wanted to use two handed weapons be told they should use one handed weapons and ignore two handed weapons? Why bother including them in the first place.

If it means so little to you why not ignore this thread and allow those who it does affect see if they can see who else feels the way they do and possibly get the issue resolved. Crazy, funny, idea etc.

The unfortunate thing is that given what I've seen so far on these forums since Skyrim's release, most of the people complaining about skills in the game don't understand this.



I'm playing the same game as you, and I call BS on that, because I have spent time grinding my smithing and enchanting skills, and they still took enough time to level to the max that they're not going to hit that high in the course of normal gameplay. And I'd been grinding my smithing after visiting every dungeon, because I'd return to the nearest town, sell everything I looted, buy up all the iron ore, iron ingots, and leather, and then smith away. By the time I reached around the 40s, my smithing was around 70.

So don't try to pretend we're talking about the same game with that kind of claim. I don't play this game with my eyes closed and with my focus elsewhere.



I'm playing on Adept, now at nearly level 70, and I still find challenge in some areas, especially with high-level enemies and dragons. I can overpower plenty of enemies, but there are still others who can easily overwhelm me, especially if I get careless and stupid.



Variety and difference of applicability. Two-handed weapons are meant to be powerful, they are large-sized weapons that trade off speed for power.

Bad anology, try a better one.



And why would I do that, given that what people are asking for in this thread are changes to the game that would include my own game? How is that justified or fair, that I should just ignore this when it also means changes to my experience?

I don't care what someone does in his game, but I damn well don't want someone else deciding how I'm supposed to be playing MY game. How selfish can you get?

Just because you exploit a mechanic that's present in the game doesn't mean everyone else does, too. Just because you find the game to be an easy joke doesn't mean everyone else does.

So many of you have such a failure in sense of perspective anywhere beyond your own, and yet many of you deign yourselves to be the ones who should dictate how the game should be altered for everyone else.

Why do you care how someone else plays his own game? What does it do to you? Does it somehow upset you that someone might be playing his game in a way that you wouldn't, or couldn't?

Normal gameplay is different for everyone. Someone may enjoy crafting more than you and focus on it moreso than you did. I only used the items I accumulated from dungeons and quests (so did it more casually than you) and I was at about 70 smithing at the low 30's. All of that depends on which dungeons you hit, you'll get quite a lot of dwarven metal from dwemer ruins than metal from a Draugr barrow. As it is you need 500 items to get to 100 Smithing regardless of what you choose to make, whether it be daggers or helms or whatever else.

Yes. Fantastic. I am saying that when you do use smithing and enchanting to their respective ends that challenge goes away.

Ugh. This from a guy who uses inane anologies about cupcakes. I wasn't saying that was the case in this game I was giving an example of something that could be an issue that I thought would be easier for you to understand. Apparently not.

Heh. And the last bit of your post sums it up. Do you not see at all how you're being hypocritical? You want the game to stay as it is because that's how you enjoy it. But you vehemently oppose changes to the game that would make it fun for others. Even when you profess the part of the game that would be changed has little to no impact on your play style.

Most of these complaints are coming from WoW kiddies who say toon. It's obvious.

I didn't read the thread, but I don't think these skills should be "nerfed". It's up to you to play the game the way you want to play. If you want to level them quickly by power-leveling, that's your choice. Personally, I choose to level them realistically, I don't make a bunch of iron daggers, I only smith once in awhile, same with enchanting, and I find the skills to be completely fine and normally leveled. They are not ruining my game at all.

I look at it like this. Bethesda gives you the option of power-leveling them if you want. If you don't want to do that, don't do it. If you do want to do that, that's fine too. It's your choice. But if you level them at a normal rate, take your time with the game and don't power-level those skills, you will be just fine.

Sadly this is what gaming has come to. Thank the MMO's and the COD series. Now developers feel compelled to cater to stupid people who lack any restraint, or simply refuse to get better. People forget this is why oblivion turned out like it did, whether you like oblivion or not is irrelevant. Oblivion was made on the tears of the crybabies from morrowind. Now, if a gamer feels something is out of place or just doesn't "like something" they cry for nerfs and unfortunately developers are starting to take their ques from activision and give these crybaby gamers the warm milk from the teet. developers think to themselves "Because you are too ignorant to actually make your own choices, we will make them for you or better yet remove them so others who can make their own choices don't have the option to do so" . Sad:(.

I don't get people's problem with balance/overpower/whatnot... For people that play skyrim it really is ironic... Skyrim is an OPEN ENDED game, you play ANYWAY you want it... you don't want overpowered enchant/smithing? then DON'T USE IT... it's that simple, use it partially, don't use it, or take full advantage of it, who cares? It's YOUR GAME, stop asking devs to nerf things just because you think it's op, you have the option to use it or not use it... sounds like the majority of players here is 10 years old that don't know that they can choose... geez

Heed my prior advice at the earliest convenient date and time.

Which means you still grinded the skill similar to how I did, and what's the problem for you, there?



And that's kind of the the point, that you grow stronger as you use those skills and improve your gear so that you can withstand more punishment while dishing out even more, yourself. It'd be odd to use those skills only to find yourself weaker as a result. So, problem?



No, I see how you were trying to force the anology, but I'm suggesting you try using a better one.

As for what I was saying with cupcakes, it's about personal choice, I'll even explain it to you step by step instead of being dismissive like you are about your own anology.

I could choose to go and buy every ingot, every ore, as much as I can afford and carry, and then spend a large amount of time smithing away, just like I could go and buy every cupcake I could ever find, and eat them all up right away.

In both cases, there is nothing to stop me nor limit me but availability of resources. No laws, no restrictions, nothing whatsoever but myself and how much funds I have.

But by doing that, I would level up my smithing to an inordinate level in contrast to the rest of my skills, and make higher-tier items available to me so that I effectively can remove what challenge anything would pose to me at the start of the game, which would reduce my enjoyment if it's the challenge I'm after. Just like eating all those cupcakes in one sitting would make me very, very fat in contrast to my other qualities as a person.

And the thing that's most common between the two is the choice to take advantage of that or not.



It's not hypocritical in the least, because this is the official state of the game. If this were the days before the internet and patching things, it would be the only possible version of the game, period, and I remember when it used to be that when a game shipped, that was it. And if a game shipped with bugs and problems, it would turn into a bad deal, such as what comes to mind are the first two Fallout games that initially shipped with bugs that were so gamebreaking that until Black Isle Studios released a patched version of the game that people could order, they were unfinishable. The patches could be downloaded as well, I think, but this was back when 56K dial-up was still the biggest thing happening in terms of internet connections.

And so you are basically saying that neither of us is entitled to enjoy the game as he sees fit, because I'm wrong for enjoying it in the fashion it was released, while you're wrong for wanting to change it in a way that the majority of the players aren't asking for.

And to change the game will have an impact on my playstyle, I don't understand how you can not realize that and make that comment. If the game is changed in its mechanics and everything is made harder, then it could end up making it necessary that I grind my skills even more and abuse the same exploits that everyone else is crying about even existing as a concept, just so that I can continue to play the game without having to constantly reload because it was changed due to it being "too easy" for all those players who abused the exploits to offset their own challenge in the first place.

Don't try and turn the argument around like that when it's YOU who is wanting to have the game changed to suit YOU. I am playing the same game as it was shipped, and I am not trying to play it in a way that offsets the balance so that I can go onto a forum and type about how something is overpowered because I spent the half hour to hour grinding and powerleveling it.

What's more, the people asking for this change hardly even constitutes a majority on the forum, let alone even the entire playerbase as a whole.

The absurdity about this whole thing is the fact that it's players like you who are asking for even less choice in the game. Not every game has to be as difficult as the hardest game other people will namecheck. Not every game has to be the same as every other game. And Skyrim is one that continues the tradition of giving the player the greatest amount of choice and control over his own character's destiny, be it become an ordinary Joe who sells potions as a traveling alchemist to the stealthy sneak thief hiding in the shadows to the demi-god warrior cleaving through his enemies with an oversized axe.

And that choice includes how you decide to level your character and play your character. And what you want to do is reduce that choice for everyone else because you don't know how to do it for yourself. That's absurd logic. And I'm supposed to be okay with it and just accept it? No.

I'm not the one telling you how the game should be, the game already is. You're the one telling me how the game should be.

I think what is not being acknowledged by those who want changes to crafting is pretty telling.

If all you want is more 'difficulty,' then yes, I think they should look at adding a few more difficulty settings for you.

But you aren't making 600 damage bows by accident. You aren't even just using the normal crafting system to do this. You cannot achieve these ridiculously powerful weapons through 1 enchanting potion + 1 alchemy gear set + 1 enchanting potion + 1 smithing gear set + 1 smithing potion. You have to intentionally loop these to achieve what is being discussed here.

People need to stop pretending that this can be done through conventional means. Just look at the videos where people are claiming 1300+ damage bows. They're looping bonuses several times and then also using skill potions and skill enchants. This is not a crafting problem. Crafting works just fine how it is.

The game is balanced around having 100 skill points in each of the crafting skills. If you do this, you will have very powerful, but not ridiculous gear. If you choose to play a character who only takes 100 smithing, but ignores the other two crafts, you shouldn't be penalized because some people can't control themselves.

This whole argument is ridiculous anyway. We could just make a stack of 200 healing potions each time we go out adventuring. How is that a challenge either?

Edit:

Huge thumbs up for Doewnskitty's post above. Those of us who have played ES games for the last 10-15 years play because of the near limitless choice. This allows us to do things like play "sub-optimal" characters. If you limit choice, you force everyone to play what you see as the most "optimal" playstyle.

I play with the difficulty up so its fine for me as it is right now. It is only unbalanced if you abuse the system

Exactly this.

You have to exploit the mechanics in this fashion, and then abuse it as much as you can in order to get those uber powerful weapons and armor. That is not within the normal gameplay, but outside of normal gameplay.

Not only that, but you have to go out of your way to gather the necessary resources as well, in order to make it possible. You spend more time exploiting the game's mechanics than just playing the game for how it is.

If the game is balanced around having 100 skill in the crafting skills, and if people are intentionally abusing the three skills in unison, then just make the game ignore any bonuses to those skills if the skills are already at 100. That way, the people who play normally won't be nerfed, and the people who abuse it will. That seems to be the only logical solution.

Um a lot of the complaints are about the things that break the game without having to go unconventional. The benefit of a well balanced game is there are more real choices instead of bull false choices team apologist seems to prefer. I've been playing ES for years and the good limitless choices are welcome the on the face broken balance things degrade choice. Having things that are broken on the face creates a false choice you can A use it and break the game or B avoid it entirely. If the complaints were just about the potion/enchanting chain of absurdity I'd say svck it up don;t do it. But the complaints are I have to pretend I am an idiot and use worse gear because just blacksmithing made me too good, or just enchanting made me too good, I have to leave stealth and intentionally get spotted since stealth is too powerful, and that is just crappy game design that should be fixed. If it was some idiot in 100% chameleon gear complaining that it broke things I'd say tough, though honestly fixing it would not remove any real choice IMO.

Basically it's as simple as placing a cap by which a potion or enchantment can improve the use of another skill. Cap that fairly low(relative to what max skills can normally do) and you'll fix the Alchemy/Smithing/Enchantment loop. If Bethesda is going to rebalance all skills though that is just the beginning. If I was working on the issue here are some things I'd do.

Add Destruction damage scaling. Mana regen past a certain point is effectively pointless in the game currently so the mana reduction as the focus of improvement with raising the skill is rather pointless. Using a damage improvement curve like weapon skills have would be a vast improvement as well as adding more enchants for all schools in general, in this case adding enchants to improve fire,ice,lightning spells.

Overall slow the skill improvement from smithing and tie improvement more to what you are crafting.

Do as someone said and improve the utility of lower end soul stones for enchanting items.

Find a way to make Ward spells actually useful.

Make the lockpicking and speech trees actually useful.

That's just the stuff off the top of my head.

That is just because you are a wow player with those crazy ideas of having a better game.

The problem is that you can get to the level 100 smithing without exploiting anything and just playing the game. You acquire metal and the only thing to do with the metal is to use it in the fashion Bethesda has designed. You may not craft strictly for what you wear, you may craft for money or companions or you may craft because you really want to make Daedric or Dragon items. Whatever reason you choose to get to 100 doesn't matter. What matters is once you get there the game is unbalanced. Bethesda is a quality producer of games. They, and other large companies, should be held to a high standard since they set the benchmarks for what types and the quality of games that will be released.

The challenge goes away entirely. That shouldn't be the case. There is a balance that needs to be reached.

I'll admit anologies svck. All of them. But they are especially bad when you have to go so far off-topic. You also missed the point of my anology completely. The point of my anology is just because you're not using a certain skill doesn't mean it doesn't exist and ignoring it isn't a suitable solution for those who do wish to use the skill. Why would you bother including it if it's meant to be ignored. It's not about the types of damage of the weapon styles.

If you are someone who was looking forward to using Dragon armour why should you be penalized in terms of gameplay for using the items available to you? At what point do you draw the line of which items are too powerful to use? If you're expected to experiment just to make the encounters designed by Bethesda appropriate it becomes a chore instead of a game. Again balance is something every game producer looks into. Bethesda just missed a huge flaw.

There are things called patches, a couple of which have already been released for this game. No game is perfect and they never will be. But games are changed all the time, for the better generally.

I will guarantee that blacksmithing and enchanting are fixed in a patch sooner or later.

@Rpger25 without looping or whatever they're calling it simply taking blacksmithing to 100 and using whatever blacksmithing gear and potions you find while out questing makes for severely unbalanced gear by the time you get Daedric items.

At 100 the skills are imbalanced, so I would have to ignore a part of the game to have some balance

Id rather they rebalance the skills.