it's not particularly hard to handle one particular situation in a program multiple ways without a massive performance penalty. Or even several hundred. The constructs exist in most major programming languages.

There are two major reasons developers don't use them:

1. It dilutes available resources. Instead of having one system that's outstanding at what it attempts, you get 50 that all underwhelm.

2. You've made the game significantly buggier, and significantly harder to test and gained at most a miniscule amount of goodwill from the most hypercritical audience you have, because 90% of the rest of the world isn't going to play with the options at all.



Edit: and I'd like to thank everyone for the most charitable assessment of my maturity ever. I'm more often described as "12 years old, with 20 years experience at it". It's just that trying to see the other side of the coin... is pretty essential to being a good writer, which is one of the hundreds of things I wish I could be...

Uh, TES was never ever a hardcoe RPG.

Morrowind was already absolutely mainstream.

Oblivion was bordering to Action RPG. In fact would it be a new game, I am sure it would be considered an Action RPG, because you need quite some reflexes to play it well (especially, better reflexes than the ones I posess).

If you really want to know a Harcore RPG, I can only recomment "The Temple of Elemental Evil". THAT is a hardcoe RPG.

Just make it a real RPG.
Take a P&P Rulebook and find out why RPGs have been around for so long.
I can assure you: It's not because they are easy to play... definitely not.
It's simply a misunderstanding that today a certain genre has to appeal to everyone.
RPGs never did that. And they never will.
And it would be foolish to give up, what made the genre so great, just for some more customers. (Fun fact: You can actually lose a lot of customers if you dumb down a game. Unfortunately not enough.)

Oh yeah, and i think the discussion shouldn't be about whether the game appeals to hardcoe Players or Casual Players but if it appeals to former TES Players.

I think they should have a Casual Gamer and hardcoe Gamer option in the options menu problem solved

I just want my characters skills to matter. Not my own use of how to block and attack.

I think that if they make it for hardcoe gamers, mainstream gamers will likely get used to it. No one starts out as a hardcoe gamer.

I'm happy for a game to offer compromise for casual gamers who use consoles, but at the end of the day there is a valid reason why pre-Oblivion TES games were popular, and that was due to them being extremely deep and engrossing RPGs.

If it were up to me I'd have two versions of TES - a casual version stripped down for console players, and a fully-realised deep, challenging and bigger version for PC players. I'd even be willing to wait longer for the latter version to be released.

That might sound a bit much, but I'm sick and tired of games I usually enjoy having quality impacted so that they can appeal to casual gamers. I doubt this new TES will be aimed at the fans that made TES what it is, much like Oblivion, so I'm not gonna get my hopes up too much. I'll buy the game and enjoy it, but will be under no illusion that it comes close to the likes of Morrowind.

I think, as others have mentioned, that optional hardcoe modes are the way to go. And with hardcoe mode I don't mean a difficulty slider bar that only means you have to whack a goblin over the head five more times before it dies. I think, as some games are starting to show, the gaming technology has become so advanced now that you can make customizable modes of playing now. For instance, you could check of boxes for eating/sleeping necessary, fast travel on/off, septims having weights etc. With options like that, you can satisfy just about every one in one game.

Options to toggle things that people will whine about until the end of time would help, and it would save me from seeing yet another thread about how Poster X hates fast travel, quest compass, and all that other stuff.

My problems with Oblivion weren't that it was being "dumbed down", some things were just badly implemented.

Take the quest compass - I like the idea, because I can't tell you how long I spent searching for that needle in a haystack-sized cave for the MQ in Morrowind. This was in the days before all the mods that give you a better view distance and clarity. The problem there was that you couldn't turn it off, and que whining about it for the next five years.

Weapon variety - while I think having ten different weapon skills added to the mess that was TES' leveling system, I don't think removing them outright was necessarily the right idea. Blades could share a slot, but Axes should be a separate skill, and I'd like to see spears and polearms return.

I might as well mention the main problem, which was the leveled enemy/loot system. Morrowind used this, but Bethesda took it too far in Oblivion. Everybody leveled up with you, and you'd never find anything out of your "range" at lower levels. No Chain/Elven/Orcish/Daedric until you hit that invisible plateau, and that was just a bad idea. It killed any love I had for exploring all those varied locations when I knew I'd find the same junk I could find just by hitting some random bandit spawn. They did fix this in Fallout 3 and it's DLC, so I don't think it will be an issue in Skyrim. Yes, you may not like a player being able to find (unbalancing weapon/armor) at level 1 or 2, but that's our choice, isn't it?

That would be a good idea, problem is that there are millions of problems in there as well. We can all agree to be TES players and still differ wildly in our opinions on the game, what we'd like to have remain the same and what we'd love to see changed. I personally thought the leveled enemies and difficulty slider are an absurd idea for reasons all my own, others think they're great for their own reasons and we'll still be at odds. Doesn't matter if you call that the difference between hardcoe and casual, engaging gameplay versus simple escapism or what have you, the fact of the matter is that we still don't disagree.
Even if we did agree on a common factors that we all enjoy about the Elder Scrolls games, it'll be impossible to get a game that pleases us all equally because the real problems are in the details. And if Bethesda was truly obsessively determined to make something to please us all, they'd have to come out with at least a dozen different versions of the game, and we'd still be griping about the one we chose to play. I often read complaints about developers not paying enough attention to the desires of gamers but there's no denying the fact that there's a limit to how much you can do for them, with so many people each with their own grand little ideas it's impossible to try and please everyone or even a majority.

That being said I'd never fault anyone for trying and so I'll say I'd like the leveled enemies and loot to be taken out of the game, and none of that wishy-washy difficulty sliding stuff either. I want the starting area to be easy and then run the risk of ending up dead from exploring areas too dangerous. The greatest adventure I can have in RPGs isn't kicking a boss's badass behind and grab tons of loot, for me it's running away with my tail between my legs, my last health vial downed a long time ago and only a fraction of my total health left. Then, getting back to safety, I'll wipe my hand across my brow in sheer relief at having survived the ordeal, and start planning my next adventure.

Remember kids, it ain't fun if it ain't likely to get ya killed.
And that goes for you as well Summer, even though I'm in no position to call you a kid.

How do you distinguish between a "casual gamer" and a "hardcoe gamer". I'll play games for a couple of hours every few days when I have time - I'd say that counts as fairly "casual". I just like the games that I do play to be excellent, deep, and rewarding.


Aaand, that brings me on to the point I want to make. TES is an RPG series. It has built up an excellent reputation and a large fan base by developing and releasing RPGs, and this is exactly what they should do with Skyrim. They should design an RPG for RPG fans, and the sales will come, as they have before. There should be no dumbing down or anything of the sorts to appeal to people who don't like the RPG genre. They are not the target audience, and no one should try shoehorning them in. Of course, that doesn't mean they should develop a horribly esoteric game. Ideally the game should be easily accessible, but with enough layers of stats and dice rolls underpinning it all that the player can play to the depth of game they want.

As far as quest markers go, that is something that has kind of bugged me for a long time. In certain situations, I think it is very necessary. Say you finish a quest, and that same NPC wants you to report to another NPC's camp in the wilderness, then yes, a map marker should be used....because most likely, the first npc would actually mark that spot on your map.

On the other hand if your in a city, and your going after some bandits that stole something, and they were last seen heading north of the city, there should be no marker. If you have to do a dungeon crawl, to recover and item, or kill someone...w/e...then the location of the dungeon itself probably should be marked on the map. The location of the target in the dungeon should not. So the system could be very complicated. I definitely do not think there should be absolutely NO map markers.

edit for spelling.

:o Deadyawn!!! :hugs:

Personally I dont think its possible to please either group.

You are always going to have idiots crying "this game svcks its too hard i cant do it!" And always going to have self righteous fools moaning "this game is soo dumbed down and stupid! i miss the old days!"

Alas.

Mods. As long as Beth keeps giving its games a good maker, you can please most.

I've always thought their approach was to make the main quest linear enough for casual gamers to pick up and complete within a reasonable (by casual game playing standards) amount of time, but then to also add in all the side story and side quests and non-linear details that make the world a more rich and satisfying game for the "old-school" crowd. You can zip through the main quest with no side questing if you want, but they try to lure you off that path with side quests that may or may not make you decide to delve deeper into the game world.

It's a difficult balance but I think they do a better job than most game studios would.

That being said, it does make me sad when they remove some elements that (in my opinion) add detail to the world, such as :
I like having more varied armor, like in Morrowind.
more types of weapons and skills
more hidden details like finding unique items / bits of story in strange places, (I loved finding weapons hidden in tree stumps in MW)
more unique locations / dungeons / NPCs

For me the biggest moment of disappointment in OB (which I still loved) was when I realised that the monsters were leveling with me, and the dungeon monsters and loot was almost always random. It made the world less worth exploring because you sort of already know what you are going to find in that next dungeon, the same stuff that was in the last dungeon.

I play Morrowind more casually than I play Oblivion.

First people need to realize that there's a difference between hardcoe gamers/ games, as well as casual gamers / games.

Casual gamers play casually, hardcoe gamers play hardcoe.

A hardcoe game can mean either, are very specialized, gory, mature, high barrier of entry, unforgiving, old, demanding.

A casual game can mean either, low barrier of entry, lacking in depth, childrens game, flash game, facebook game, arcade game, easy game.

Than they need to realize that most people are just gamers, playing some games hardcoe while others casually.

Most people don't even realize that most casual games actually are on the PC an not on the consoles. Everybody knows how to use a PC, not everybody knows how to use a console controller. My girlfriend has a level 80 character in Runescape, but she can't play halo 3 (well she can try and fail horribly), because it assumes that she's trained and familiar with dual anolog controls.



I agree with this.

This point is mute. If you play an RPG like TES, then you are a hardcoe RPG fan.

There is no mainstream for this game... only the hardcoe RPG fans.

Make the game accessible, in that gamers new to hardcoe RPG's can get into it.

But by playing a game like this you BECOME a hardcoe RPG fan.

So making the game for a "mainstream" audience that doesn't actually exist is stupid.

"moot" may be the point ; "mute" is definitely what you aren't. Oh my eyes.

I'd like to see them implement the classic SPECIAL.


I don't expect a change. Though, Todd Howard commented, he and missed Daggerfall's subtlety, when answering some FAQs about Oblivion. The interview was post-Shivering Isles, I believe.


Moot's debatable, not just irrelevant. Some of our forumers enjoy the debate.

So your comment is moot. Anyone who uses the word moot is moot...

This isn't hard to do. Focus on the world that the game is set in, on the characters, and on the little details. Make it feel alive, not through silly little NPC schedules but through writing, variation, believability and atmosphere. Make crypts dark and dank, silent aside from the occasional sound of a monster echoing from some far-off place. Make nights feel isolated and lonely, contrasted with the bright lights and inviting sounds of the local taverns. Give people personalities that go beyond seeing a mudcrab the other day and agendas that go beyond eating at noon and sleeping at 8, even if it's just in the way they talk and they don't take action on it, and let the player interact with them in ways that feel meaningful, even if they aren't.

This is what matters on the RPG end of things. This is what pulled people into Daggerfall and (to a lesser extent) Morrowind, and a lack of it is what made Oblivion so much harder for a lot of long-term fans to get into. This is that special something everyone knows and feels in certain games, but no one can quite name or place. Do this for your "hardcoe" fans, do what you like for the rest, and I can just about guarantee that you'll please the majority.

I'd vote for that. You tell them Rab.

It is foolish to think Elder Scrolls is a hardcoe RPG.

When people say 'casual' it means 'people who play just because they want to'. Not because it's Elder Scrolls, not because there's Daedra, or any kind of reason, but just because they have time and happened to double-click the .exe.

They don't really care about stuffs like 'realism'. They know it's nothing but a game and happy to play. They do things their way without any kind of restrictions, or maybe a little. They don't role-play too much, and play just to kill time or to read the story. Maybe they like a bit of realism to add the fun, but that's it

This is in contrast to hardcoe RPG gamers who role-play a lot and impose many restrictions to themselves (Acadian springs to mind) especially in the name of realism. Casual gamers don't think too much and play freely. Think of a kid playing a free-roaming game (like Grand Theft Auto, not a kid-game but you get the point). They do stuff at random, going anywhere without definite goal.

Take Oblivion, for instance. I play it at random, going anywhere just for fun without any kind of restriction in general (for example, I use god armor and spell all the time). Am I a hardcoe gamer? Oblivion no!

Have things like the quest compass and fast travel as optional.

I agree with Summer that there is no "both." There are lots and lots of sides, and I'm pretty sure that Bethesda is looking to make a game that can be enjoyed by many of them. And if I wanted to enjoy a TES game for 10 minutes, I'd probably pick flowers, rearrange inventory, read an in-game book, experiment with spellmaking or enchanting, practice a skill, or something of the sort. Sometimes I find it soothing just to sit with my character, gazing into the fire in her cottage (thank you, Emma!), pondering what to tackle next.