I realize there have been many negative posts on the forums since Skyrim’s release, which typically result in pointless flame wars that solve nothing, so I want to start by saying this is not meant to be one of those. My intention for this thread is not to complain, but to point out what I feel to be a potentially awesome class in need of very specific work, then offer and hopefully solicit actual constructive suggestions as to how it might be salvaged.

That said, I’ll compare simple mechanics first.


Problem 1: Stagger Mechanics

Destruction magic, for example, has perks that make every dual-cast spell stagger the enemy, effectively keeping them permanently at range and unable to retaliate. Combine this with gear that makes spells cost no mana at all, while I have to lug around all these arrows.

With archery fully perked you only get a 50% chance to stagger, and not against boss types at all. Realistically it is archery that needs to keep an enemy at ranged, since they have really no effective tools once things get in close aside from maybe dropping a Destruction rune or Conjuration atronach or my favorite, “run for the shadows and pray they don’t detect you.”

Destruction just damages through this. However, archery damage pretty well svcks. Even with a fully perked Smithing improvement and fire enchant it is often taking two or more sneaking shots (perked for triple damage) to kill things one dual-cast fireball obliterates on my mage.


Problem 2: Unreliable Targeting

Also with a mage you don’t really have to worry too much about “aiming.” Anywhere on the body with a fireball or other spell and the enemy satisfyingly and believably bursts into flame or appropriate spell effects, with the stagger effect to boot.

Archery on the other hand, man what a crap shoot! Even with the crosshair turned on, even fully zoomed in, even with a stationary enemy, and with the bowstring fully pulled back, targeting is completely unpredictable. I was looking forward to the new combat system, to zooming in for head shots and such but so far at level 30 (character, level 50 archery), it just isn’t happening.

The problem I feel is partly with the animations. If a character is, for example, mining, or sitting, or talking, or grazing, or looking around, or… pretty much doing anything aside from standing perfectly still, their hit box is not the actual outline of their character. So, I can get all lined up for a satisfying head shot, release, and BAM! Arrow sails right through their head with no damage! I have also yet to see a single special finisher with bows.

This also becomes an issue when I inevitably find myself backpedaling/running. With a mage I can run, turn and throw a quick shot anywhere on the body and be guaranteed a stagger, so I can then get more range. With archery, stagger is unreliable plus it takes longer to pull an arrow back if you don't want it to just plop out in front of you (there is no quick-draw penalty on magic), plus again aiming on archery is far less forgiving.


Problem 3: Wasted Enchanting Charge

Then there is the issue with enchantments. With enchanted swords (or any other weapon) I can swing my enchanted blades all I like, even hit things like training dummies or the wall, and never lose enchanting charges. With bows, if I accidentally shoot an arrow, or do target practice on a dummy, or miss, I STILL lose a charge! Charge loss should be consistent across all weapon types. In other words, I should only lose charge if I actually strike an actual enemy for actual damage.

This is especially frustrating as a stealth class without a reliable stagger mechanic like destruction, as one shot and an enemy will start running (see crappy damage), and since AI has them constantly change paths and arrows have a flight time, it is less about skill and more about firing several shots until you get lucky, and each miss is costing you enchanting charges.


I guess being a stealth class I was expecting more of an assassin type game with archery, and instead it seems more like a “take a cheap shot then run like a girl, repeat till all are dead” type class, which is not much fun at all really. Guess I’ll have to roll a dagger rogue to play an assassin, with their 30x backstab damage.

So, here are my suggestions thus far:

• Make bows only lose enchanting charge when you actually hit an something living for actual damage like every other weapon.
  
• Make stagger shots depend on location, so a headshot or torso shot will always stagger like Destruction dual-cast always staggers.
  
• Have limb shots slow fleeing run speed considerably.
  
• Increase perk damage multiplier for bows. Come on with the 15x damage (plus gear to make it 30x) for daggers and only 3x for bows?
  
• Add finisher moves for bows? Maybe they exist but at level thirty I have still yet to see one.
  
• Remove the penalty for quick-firing arrows, or speed up the animation for equipping the bow and pulling back the string considerably.

Things like this aren't going to change. It's pretty much set in stone by bethesda if FO3 and Oblivion are any indication.

You have mods for the things you're asking for. If you play on console then you're really out of luck.

Considering that people complain archery is overpowered, you might be doing something wrong.

Or maybe it's just overpowered if you have crafting, like all physical damage.

I can't say I've had a problem with any of these, bar the second a little. There has been some odd shots where my arrow has gone through the edge of an enemy's head/chest/legs and not hit. But I'm able to keep enemies charging me at range reasonably well with staggering (and I'm not even fully perked in Archery), the accuracy has been for the large part fine, and losing charge when I fire my bow not only makes sense - the bow is enchanted, not the arrow, so it will use charge when an arrow is released regardless of whether it hits - but provides an incentive to be careful with shooting.

What I would want to see is damage corresponding to limb (maybe 2x for head, 1x for torso, and 0.75x for arms/legs) and finishing moves for archers who are about to achieve a 1HKO.

Daggers get more sneak damage because it's higher risk. With a bow you can sneak from a mile away completely safe, but to get that fat 15x damage bonus with a dagger you need to get right up on them without being detected.

And finisher moves? What? What kind of finisher move would a bow even have? Or a spell for that matter? None of the ranged moves have finishers for good reason.

I understand where you are coming from with your first point completely. But 3x vs. 30x seems just a little excessive a spread.

As for finishers, how about a semi-slow motion closeup of a guy grabbing an arrow that just went through his head and staggering around before dropping dead? >=]

My biggest beef is probably the lack of region-based damage. I mean Fallout 3 had this, it exists as part of the engine. Plus the idea to slow an enemy down considerably if you shoot them in the legs I just find logical, not to mention necessary to compensate for other mechanics effectively.

It would be to jarring and unnatural. It worked in Fallout 3 because you had VATS, and the game knew before you even made the shot if it was going to hit or not so you watched the bullet go from your gun barrel to the enemy head.

In Skyrim there is no such system. The game can't tell if you hit an enemy before you hit an enemy anymore, and to show a finishing move AFTER you killed the enemy is strange.

When you're in a room full of enemies, and the odds are highly against you, there is a good reason why the 30x bonus comes in handy for a melee. So, your survivability odds increases by eliminating one target, so you have less to deal with.

On the other hand, if you're an archer in the same room, the Archer can use guerilla tactics, shoot-hide shoot-hide-dead, so it's fair to say that it doesn't need more than 3x damage.

I have a main spec Archer, and I also specced one hander for the backstab bonus. All in all, now that I've got a Daedric Bow, and stagger, Archery is a cake walk.

As a L54 ranger, I can say that I have only had two issues with archery. One being that your arrow never really goes where you aim, you have to aim for their heart to get a head shot, and sometimes your arrow just goes off in a random direction. The second being poor collision detection, where arrows go through bodies and heads.

[*]Make bows only lose enchanting charge when you actually hit an something living for actual damage like every other weapon.
I don't really see this as anything major, but since melee does not lose a charge when they swing and miss, I think adding this does make sense.

[*]Make stagger shots depend on location, so a headshot or torso shot will always stagger like Destruction dual-cast always staggers.
Once you get the perk you stagger enemies quite often. I've staggered just about every enemy in the game, the few that aren't flat out one-shotted.

[*]Have limb shots slow fleeing run speed considerably.
This would be nice, but I'm not sure this would be possible. From what I can tell, I don't think there are any hit locations.

[*]Increase perk damage multiplier for bows. Come on with the 15x damage (plus gear to make it 30x) for daggers and only 3x for bows?
If you are doing a sneak ranger, then the 3x is all you will need, as you should never be seen. I've cleared out a room of 8 enemies without being seen. The extra points in Crit Shot might help if you think you need it.

[*]Add finisher moves for bows? Maybe they exist but at level thirty I have still yet to see one.
Not needed, unless you want the camera to zoom to the enemy that gets one-shotted, taking away precious time that could be better used aiming at the next enemy. Besides, no finishing move can top hitting a long range target off of a bridge and watching him plummet to the ground far below, though extending the length of the slow motion would be nice from time to time. Having your character comment on how awesome of a shot that was could be nice as well, as long as it isn't over used.

[*]Remove the penalty for quick-firing arrows, or speed up the animation for equipping the bow and pulling back the string considerably.
There is a perk for pulling the string back 30% faster (which actually does help), though I would not be against a second point in there to increase it to 50%. Not really sure what you are wanting here. If you are getting ambushed in the open, equip your bow then use left trigger to punch your enemy in the face to stagger them, which uses the Block skill, so if you have enough perks you can even disarm with your bow (or you can punch them right after hitting them with an arrow and you can sometimes do decent damage), then step back while prepping your shot, zooming in for the slow motion, and get an easy kill.

Eh I wouldn't use Destruction as a comparison, while you do get the stagger it's pretty well established that the damage is lacking and archery easily has it beat.

Aside from that, I don't have much else to say regarding archery as I haven't used it a whole lot.

did you seriously just ask what kind of finisher moves a bow and arrow would produce? Use your imagination lol.

I have a level 44 archer, and am having a lot of fun with it. Even now that they're getting a bit overpowered (just one-shotted a bear recently) it's still enjoyable due to the need to aim. Haven't really noticed any bad collision box misses, in fact it usually seems to go the opposite way for me. Regional damage would be awesome, so yeah, that's probably my only complaint. It'll really be interesting to look around for locational damage functionality once the ck is released.

They just need to replace the useless zoom perk with a perk that lets you draw the bow back MUCH faster at the cost of stamina. This will help with kiting in the early game as well as burst damage. Once you get the Ranger perk, your kiting troubles are over because you can draw the bow while strafing away at full speed, only needing to stop for a fraction of a second to release the arrow. But early on it's really rough if you're not a sneaker.

Aside from the aiming which is out (having to aim low) I don't have any problems with archery. I find it to be very easy, especially after getting I got the slow mo' perks.

I am only on the default difficulty, I have crafted my own bow and I do have a companion that can engage the enemy while I shoot from range, they probably all help.

I'd willingly trade headshots for sneak damage.

Something some people may not realize, Power Bash and Disarming Bash also work with a bow, not just a shield.

im really enjoying being an archer, ive done it alot in real life and think the mechanics are great. You have to consider all things it seems, leading when they are walking, drop, wind. U can be very accurate with zoom, and slow time seems to keep them at bay long enough

I just did a quick check using the console, the actor values for locational damage are still in there (typed "player.getav leftmobilitycondition" and "player.getav perceptioncondition" and it returned values). Whether there are locational hit boxes though remains to be seen. Next time I'm in a fight I'll try checking to see if any of those values decrease when their associated body parts are hit. If so, locational damage could be modded in with 5 minutes worth of gamesetting tweaks.

IF you're doing it right, you shouldn't even have to stagger them

Archery is fine, stagger perk procs all the time and with Ranger you can circle strafe enemies like a boss. Non-sneak damage could use a small buff, but that's about it. I agree with the complains over hitboxes though, they are just terrible, and sharp enemy movement doesn't really help this issue. And there's no reason that enemies have only one hitbox, this is 2011, not 1991...

So let me get this straight.

Because other combat options are overpowered... instead of fixing them... archery should too be made overpowered instead?

The first thing that occurred to me is that you should probably get past fifty Archery before coming to conclusions.

My character is level 29 but put points only in Sneak and Archery and is 100 and 89 respectively. In Sneak, my character has all but the very top perk and in Archery, she has all but the top and the 2nd "slow time" perk; it is only in the last couple levels that I put two points in One-Handed. My character is very heavy with the Sneak and Archery. It sounds like Alchemy would work well for archers, but I've not messed with that at all.

I love the Archery dynamic. It is powerful enough to my play style without making me feel invulnerable. I really play the hunter/sniper heavily and have to think about my placement, my escape route and watch my target/s for the best opportunity to shoot before I ever shoot. Yes, very early-on I had to shoot and run away but that is rare now and for the most part, it is one-shot kills from a hidden position and I keep far enough away and have enough points in Sneak that it is very rare I am ever detected. Oddly, every time I had to run away I could hear in my mind "run away, run away!" from a Monty Python movie. I think it made things interesting and it really made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up a little when I got that close to death. I'm deadly from a distance, though I am imperfect. When I mess up and get caught within sword-distance of someone, I am a paper tiger. I actually love this and, like I stated, makes me think more carefully before engaging in battle.

I have no problem with the hit box. Sometimes my reticle is in the clear over a rock or railing and yet the arrow fires into the railing. I play only in first-person and so am not sure if this is some viewpoint problem from a first-person angle. Yes, I have seen arrows go through a target but it seems it is always for a target that is very far away. I have a feeling that the arrow only has a certain range of lethality yet the game still draws the pixels of the arrow flying through the air once past that point and will make the arrow go through a target with no collision detection. I should shoot an arrow straight up and see if it ever comes back down and if not, that may lead me to believe that there is just some distance where the arrow goes "dead" even though the game keeps drawing its trajectory. Anyway, if I am within a reasonable range, I never have a problem.

I, personally, can care less about finishing moves. The developers only have so much time to create things and the game has only so many CPU cycles to play with that I don't think this will improve the game anywhere near the effort put into this; this is my $.02.

The Sneak and Archery combination works very well for me. If I place my character well, I take my one shot and if the mean ol' baddie still has lots of health left, I'm back to hidden by the time he gets near me because I fire at such a distance or ledge that is hard to get to from his starting position. Yes, it is a slower type of combat, but I love it. Then, I shoot again and rinse and repeat to make sure I pepper my targets from a hidden stance. Sometimes things go wrong and then it gets interesting and I'm using a Shout, svcking down the health and enhancement potions but mostly, just running away because at my level and my low one-handed perk level, most enemies block my dagger strikes to make them meaningless. "Run away, run away!" Overall, it's rare I ever need a health potion or have to wait between encounters for my health to replenish.

I found or bought some paralyzing bow...I think it has a chance to paralyze a target for four seconds. I held onto it for a bit but used it at some boss-fight against two Mages and it worked well. This fight began with some dialogue and forced me to be within a pretty close proximity to the enemy and I could not benefit from a hidden stance's damage modifiers. I was surprised and disappointed to see that the charge level was down to about 1/8 afterwards. But honestly, if these bows had charges that lasted forever, which combined with how I snipe from a safe spot and far distance, could over power the character. I think you have a point here, but I'm not quite sure what the answer would be.

BTW, at level 29, my Ebony Bow does a base level damage of 64. I have an Apparel Item that fortifies Archery +30%. This is before the perks and stuff. I just throw that out there because I've not played a "melee" character yet and have no clue what daggers, swords and other weapons are doing in the game. However, the one thing I get that the others do not is to fight from a distance and "run away, run away" when things get too hot. Which brings me to one last point.... from very early on I began putting points in Stamina which helps me to "run away, run away!" which helped me to survive the low levels and still helps me to survive. 1v1, I am such a paper tiger, though; but, it makes it very interesting and I have to think about what I'm doing.

I, for one, am actually enjoying the Sneak/Archer very much.

No.



These are legitimate issues that merit discussing. If you have nothing to contribute please just move on.

I don't happen to agree with most of what you said about archery. It feels just right in my opinion. I will however agree that from time to time the hit boxes do seem a bit off while NPCs are in animations. Also i know the FINISHERS have been 50/50 loved/hated, but it would be cool to see some for bows...

OH! and also i think arrows should have weight. I don't think i should ever be running around with 500+ arrows.

I'm really loving archery in this game. I'd even say it's the best representation of archery I've ever played in an RPG.

That said, I do like the suggestions for shots that slow enemy movement. We do get bullseye and power shot, and the quick-shot perk should help with draw speed.

There is a perk to speed up the drawing of the bow. Archery works fine and even with a crappy elven bow with just a soul trap enchant on dragons and even dragon priests die on med diff w/o much struggle. Half the arguments are just silly. If a bow uses enchants when you shoot it at a "practice target" use a diff bow. Lugging around all those arrows?? they weigh nothing and you can buy some at shops if there are so many diff types that its such a drag to carry around the weightless items. Bows have a stun feature built in naturally. Its not nearly as horrible as you make it sound. A sneak shot with a crit (even just two perks) half barred a giant yesterday with just a gimpy elven bow with yet under 70 skill. There's plenty of things in the game to take archery over the top, summons, comp, shouts etc but it works ok without it. I think it's more you than the ugly thing you make bows out to be =/