I'm playing Oblivion. I have a level 30 Bosmer. I have 98 in Marskman, and my agility is 112 (enhancements).

It'd be pretty difficult to find a better archer.

I did an experiment.

I went to Cann in the Shivering Isles (Mania side).

It's a large dungeon, so I felt it would be good for testing.

I took a http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Amber_Bow#Amber_Bow. I took 200 http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Amber_Weapons#Amber_Arrow, but without an enchantment on them. They're the level 23+ type, but with no damage health. The reason I took non-enchanted arrows is because I have never found a matrix for amber arrows. Even if I did, 25 isn't going to last long. Thus, normal amber arrows.

I fully charged my bow with soul gems. Completely. my bow holds 4150 magic points. It uses 55 every time it fires. A full charge will provide me with 75 shots.

My goal was relatively simple. I wanted to count the number of arrows it took for me to kill each creature as well as counting the number of creatures killed. I also wanted to see how many arrows I generally managed to recover.

I have the best basic bow amber can buy. It's even already enchanted! I am two points shy of the best possible marksmanship skill. I have the best unenchanted arrows in the game.

Here were my results:

I killed 53 creatures. Most were conjurers so they were nice and soft. Everything else was a Hunger - also not particularly tough.


I fired 212 times.

I started with 200 arrows. I ended with 91.

This would indicate a recovery rate of "about half" for the arrows. It came out to be 45%. For the record, I scoured the place for arrows too. The nice thing about amber arrows is that if they are present, you can definitely see them easily. Even so, I only managed a 45% recovery rate.

It cost me slightly more than 4 amber in arrows. However, I only recovered 2 amber from the entire dungeon. This left me at an amber deficit of 2.

It also cost me 11,660 magic points to keep the bow charged. In fact, I ran out of the charge along with several soul gems before I even finished the halfway point of the second area of this dungeon. I had to cut out to return to town, recharge the bow and buy additional soul gems to carry with me into the dungeon in order to complete it. Even after purchasing every soul gem in bliss, I only barely finished the dungeon. This is 8 grand soul gems worth of magic.

When the hunt was over, however, I had only acquired 1 greater, 1 grand, and 3 lesser soul gems. This left me with a magic deficit of 7960 magic points.

I also consumed 5 homemade healing potions in the process - not to mention running around a dungeon like a kitten on PCP because I had to shoot and retreat from the hordes of conjurers that would see me if they were in a pack and I tried to pick one off.

This is a conjurer dungeon. Heretics.

I've also gone into dungeons such as Milchar, which is composed of standard monsters. While the amber yield there is enough to sustain the hunts, it's still somewhat close. I generally wind up with a massive magic point deficit as well. If I run into necros or undead, it gets very ugly very quickly.

It's honestly kind of... This kind of svcks.


The reason I tracked all this, posted all this, and wrote all this isn't just to whine and complain. That's not the point at all, actually, as I long ago gave up the idea of being an "archer type" in Oblivion.

Skyrim is announced for this November though, and my hope among hopes is that Bethesda really, truly discovers that not everyone who plays their game wants to be a sorcerer. Please make that possible in the next one.

Was the experiment done sneaking or not sneaking?

That could have a large impact on the outcome.

Sneaking - TOTALLY. I'm not stupid. I'd get killed if I wasn't sneaking. My sneak maxed out at around level 15. I'm level 30 now.

They've said that archery is a lot more powerful in Skyrim (I think in the magazine), but finding arrows and stuff is also more rare.

Wonderful. Bigger dungeons (probably), and presumably the good loot will be at the back of them. But with less good arrows to make it through them. I just love gathering things for a hunt for three hours before I actually enter a dungeon.

I'm not even kidding. If it weren't for alchemy I'd be totally screwed. I do an awful lot of farming to be able to make the potions and poisons it takes to clear a dungeon however.

It's not at all uncommon for me to go into a dungeon, sneak all the way through it and just go for the treasure boxes. I'm not kidding. I'd say... 2 out of 3 dungeons I enter, I don't even shoot anyone. I just loot the treasure boxes and get the Hell out. I LOVE the Ancestor Moth Priests!

Of course about half the time they see me somewhere in the dungeon halfway through, and I'm pretty screwed at that stage. I just reload and start over though, so I have no idea how much of my time this actually eats up.


I'm just seriously hoping they actually make it possible for someone other than a magic user to do their thing and have fun with it next time around.

And aiming with the bow takes a lot more time,but I really don′t expect for marksman to be a one shot one kill skill...
If it′s a bit more powerful, it′s nice

I think with weaker creatures (deer) it can be a one shot kill.

You know... all that testing time would have been better spent reading up on Skyrim.

Just saying, people should read a bit up on Skyrim before investing large amounts of time on doing tests for Oblivion and making a redundant thread on the forums seeing as changes to Archery have already been confirmed many times over.

Fair point. Likewise it's expeditious to post a link to those other threads rather than simply tell others that they're present. If we knew they were present we wouldn't start a new one. Well, I wouldn't at least.

Um, I did fine in Oblivion and I hated magic, hardly ever touched it. All my characters were melee or archers.

Super. I'm glad it worked out for ya'. I'm not being sarcastic either.

Not all of us are enjoying such results, however.

I still don't see the point of this thread. you can be an archer but not a pure archer. you still need to do some melee fight. even if you are legolas himself, you'll still need to keep a dagger around. my point is, yes archery is hard in TES, but it is also hard in real life.

And your experiment has a problem, because you are clearing out a dungeon. a dungeon fight is actually "close quarter" fight, so in any sense a bow and arrow combo shouldn't be used there at all. that would be equivalent to fighting with a sniper rifle in close quarter combat (instead of shotgun, submachinegun). doesn't make much sense does it? well of course, if you are good at quickscoping then fine, lol. In skyrim the devs have clearly classified bow and arrow as a long range ONLY weapon by limiting the firing speed and upping the damage.

Point taken.

http://www.gameinformer.com/games/the_elder_scrolls_v_skyrim/b/xbox360/archive/2011/01/24/skyrim-building-better-combat.aspx

It′s the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs under "Dealing Damage From The Shadows".

BTW I′m playing an Argonian monk ATM that uses no offense besides archery & hand to hand so I know your pain, it′s either to pump 100 arrows into my enemies or to hit them for nearly nothing up close while taking a lot of damage (I use light armor), but I did make that character to have a challenge playing, even had to flee from a dread zombie once since it healed faster than I could kill it with my fists after I had used up all of my arrows on it.

Yes, archery is by far my favorite way to play in Oblivion, and many other RPGs.

I am very excited to hear that the damage has been increased. I am slightly worried about the rarity of arrows, but that's fine. I will get by.

Yay archers!

Check out the GI website on skyrim, they have a ton of information on it, including the new combat systems (archery included).

Hope this helps.

Considering the increased damage for bows, the rarity of arrows will balance out since you won't need as many.
Also, with sprinting and the new stun move that archers get, it should be fairly easy to fire and rapidly reposition.
When aiming, you have to compensate for breathing as well, but there's a perk to hold your breath for a moment.
All in all, I like the changes. Especially the satisfying thud when arrows hit your target. :twirl:

First of all, Alaston: I love the practical and mathematical approach you took to calculate the plausibility of a certain play style in Oblivion. This is evidence and data that Bethesda can examine and work with to make the series better. Ultimately, TES is a numbers game (though they are constantly working harder to hide it). With a post like yours, it will be hard for Bethesda to claim that Marksmanship was a potent enough skill to rely on alone. With comments such as "archery never worked for me" or "bows are just too boring," Bethesda will never know what they did wrong. You might have actually provided some information that will have a direct effect on the outcome of archery in Skyrim. Awesome.

That being said, it should always be up to the player to decide what skills to use (and not to use) to get them through the game. Relying solely on destruction, two-handed weapons or archery are perfectly viable play styles and should be treated as such. Not everyone has to be a spellsword or battlemage. I personally prefer a character that relies enough on my wit and stealth that I can steal items from any mark (friend or foe) that benefit me greatly and serve my financial interests enough to receive the best training in any skill I feel may someday be necessary. If I can't play that way (or feel like there is little point to playing that way), then I will lose interest.

Not to poke around the old Morrowind/Oblivion topic again (even I am tired of hearing myself say things like this), but Oblivion seemed to force me away from my preferable play style in favor of a single specialization: blade/destruction. Is there anyone that made it through the main quest (or faction quests, for that matter) without a destruction spell (or healing spell) and sharp weapon equipped? I don't know. I don't want to take away from this excellent post, and I don't want to repeat something everyone has heard many times... but Skyrim better make it possible for people like you and me to make it all the way through the game without having to trade in our beloved specializations for something that just... fits better.

So ultimately, "No Alaston, you are the Elder Scrolls."

Yes as others have stated they are making archery much more deadly and have revamped the system to accommodate that fact. Arrows will be more rare and costly but also more useful. You should expect one or two hit kills with them.

I imagine that the fighting style they are going for is the more realistic. Warriors and adventurers alike will want to have the ability to use both a bow and a sword. Since close combat is often unavoidable with numerous enemies it seems like you will be able to kill as many as you can with you bow (and if you are hidden this could be a significant number) and then bring out your sword when the remaining enemies close the distance gap. Also, warriors take note, it will be useful (just like in real life) to pick off as many enemies as you can before engaging in close combat.

The truth is distance is always a preferred method of fighting (especially when it gives you the advantage). Just look at the evolution of weapons.

???? I've found that an archer characters are one of the most powerful. in combination (without enchantments) the deadric bow and arrow are more powerful than any other non enchanted weapon. add enchantments you can do severe amounts of damage, then add sneaking you can one shot theoreticly any enemie who has less than 300 health. then you should be able to get off a second shot before the enemy reaches you. per strike (and enemy retaliation) the archer was almost over powered in OB.

Well, yes and no. I used no spells for a whole save game (including the factions besides the mages guild). I played as a rogue/thief and used short swords and daggers

What do you mean a magic defeicit, I see teh thing about amber, and soul gems being lost, but what exactly do you mena by a magic deficit?

I

meaning he had to use more soul gems to charge the magic in his weapons then he got from the dungeons.

Oh alright, so basically his point is archery is useless, because it costs more money and more magick.

Shouldn't being an archer be an option?



Fair enough, and I do have a high blade skill. I currently use a really good flaming sword - but I very much prefer the bow and arrow. Well, would, if it was viable.



Dungeons should, in theory, make it easier to hide and duck around corners. Of course that doesn't work in Oblivion, but still.

This particular dungeon though, Cann, is massive. The walls and hallways are long enough that for all intents and purposes one is fighting outside.



Thank you. I'll read this tonight.



Admirable. I'm using light armor as well, but I use a blade when the bow and arrow aren't getting it done.



Thank you for the high praise! I'm sincerely flattered.



Here's hoping!


Thanks for your input, everyone.

By the way, I only just now went and got Azura's Star. It's the first shrine I've ever completed. I normally try to avoid spoilers so I hadn't looked into the shrines much, having not completed any in the past. So worth it. This will at least help me limit my magic costs.

That said, any game that requires a guidebook and walkthrough with a bunch of spoilers in order to limit the tediousness... Probably could use a little work.

God, I wish they make archery better. I always play archers first in every RPG I play, and Oblivion was no exception. But, man, was I surprised to find that archery was just not viable in higher levels. So yeah, if possible I would love to have archery play a more active role in the world of Skyrim.