I think that, given the proof of both Lorkhan's (the heart) and Shor's existence (the hall of valor), and their drastically different natures, we can hypothesize with relative certainty that they are DIFFERENT BEINGS.

Five Songs and Arcturian Heresy are two of the most important ingame books and contributions to overall TES lore next to The Monomyth and Varieties of Faith. Five Songs and AH could have been written in a wild, abstract fashion, but they weren't. They were meant to convey information. Furthermore the heresy in Arcturian Heresy comes from the fact that it goes against Imperial propaganda anon accepted history. In real life, no; you would never accept anything historical at face value, but in a literary world it makes sense to.

Show me someone that doesn't accept Five Songs and AH, and I'll show you someone who isn't familiar enough with TES metaphysics because the two sources break many a paradigm. That's why they're important. They lay out a lot of the mechanics for things like mantling and show how mantling changes things in the real world.

And yes, Zurin Arctus was the Underking, but he wasn't the first. Underking is a title, just like Ysmir. They both describe Shor's ghost which, surprise surprise! both Zurin Arctus and Wulfharth were.

All you have to do is accept that the universe of TES is built on the fracturing of egos, allowing for more personalities to form. It's how the universe was created. Echoes of fracturing and pieces of larger entities fighting each other repeat themselves, and one of those is of the being Talos who has three pieces: Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth. Once you get past that fact, it all falls into place, and you don't have to look for roundabout ways to alternatively describe things; ways like these threads. Look at the stickies at the top of the forum's thread list. Ctrl+F "Enantiomorph". It's all there clear as day.

King Wulfharth: Powerful Tongue, possible Dragonborn, reinstated Nordic traditions, drove out Alessians, fought Morrowind, died ONCE. May his spirit live forever in Sovngarde.

Sorry, my mistake, I checked and the Battle of Red Mountain was between the Dwemer and Dunmer, no Nords were involved. . Wulfharth, being a big nationalist, probably tried to restore Nord control over Morrowind after his election and purging of Alessians in the 1E 480's. It was there that he died, during an attempted invasion of Morrowind that is not recorded (the Nords do this A LOT). I still think he was just a powerful tongue, maybe Dragonborn, but not an immortal God-King.

I think that, given the proof of both Lorkhan's (the heart) and Shor's existence (the hall of valor), and their drastically different natures, we can hypothesize with relative certainty that they are DIFFERENT BEINGS. Just as Alduin is neither an Aedra (I said he was a demigod of immense power, IN ADDITION to being the first and most powerful dragon) nor Akatosh, Shor and Lorkhan could be distinct spirits, perhaps related to one another (like Alduin and Akatosh). And Auriel probably ISN'T Akatosh, given Akatosh's "I care about everybody" nature and Auriel's "Only Mer matter" nature.

Also, while Alduin is "the world-eater" and Paarthurnax and the Greybeards believe he will play a central role in the end of this world (Mundus) that is not to say that he is powerful enough to do it instantly. The Hero of Cyrodiil was destined to save Tamriel, but he had to jump through a whole lot of hoops to do so. By contrast, the "Five Songs..." say that Alduin can just eat time. Hmmm, funny how he never shows that ability in the main story of TES V. Ohhh wait, he does, except it is a specific Dragon shout that raises Dragons whose souls hadn't been devoured by a dragonborn, and that Alduin never uses a shout that effects an enemy's time adversely.

And the Mantella was not created when Wulfharth's soul was sapped. The Mantella was just a soul gem made to power the Numidium. When Wulfharth's soul was svcked, a reflection of the enantiomorph was housed inside, so Tiber Septim's soul was inside it as well along with Arctus' and Wulfharth's. Tiber Septim still had a soul, but it was a three-in-one soul.

Then why do historical sources place him at the time of the Alessian Order? There's also a tablet in Windhelm that places his reign from the late 400s to the early 500s.



Shor's entire existence is based on the fact that he is Lorkhan. The entire Mannish mindset follows the idea that Shor/Shezarr taught the Aedra to sacrifice themselves for the creation of Mundus and the mortal races. And why oh why can't he be at the Hall of Valor? It's the land of the dead. Shor is dead. Tsun is dead. His heart was ripped out in the Dawn Era by elven gods. If this was Wulfharh's propaganda, then there would be more evidence for your claims. In Skyrim, the Nords say "Shor's bones" a lot. To me, bones = death. http://imperial-library.info/content/shezarr-and-divinesThe Heart of the World refers to http://imperial-library.info/content/monomyth-altmeri-heart-world




And? It backfired last time, why do the same trick twice when the Greybeards just bring the Children's God back? Futhermore, he appears to still be reeling from the dragonbreak.

So, by your logic, Jurgen Windcaller never existed? He based his entire teachings off the defeat at Red Mountain! But according to you, they were never there! Damn... Wulfharth believes went out of there way to build a tomb, and somehow Paarthurnaax and the Greybeards believe Nords were there. Yet there he is in Sovngarde

On the other hand, Ysmir isn't there.

Besides, here in Nordic mythology Akatosh is still a cyclic time god. He just has Alduin do the job for him.

Edit: Made my post somewhat less rude. Sorry 'bout that.

King Wulfharth: Powerful Tongue, possible Dragonborn, reinstated Nordic traditions, drove out Alessians, fought Morrowind, died ONCE. May his spirit live forever in Sovngarde.

Zurin Arctus: Mortal Cyrodiil Battlemage, soldier of the Third Empire, heart used to make Mantella, fought Numidium, became Underking, finally reclaimed his heart and truly died. May he find eternal rest in Aetherius.

Hjalti Early-Beard a.k.a General Talos a.k.a Emperor Tiber Septim: TRUE SON OF SKYRIM! DRAGONBORN! HEIR TO THE SEAT OF SUNDERED KINGS! HE WHO UNITED TAMRIEL SO COMPLETELY AND RULED SO WELL THAT UPON DEATH HE ASCENDED TO RIGHT HAND OF AKATOSH TO BECOME TAAAAALLLLLOOOOSSSSS! NINTH DIVINE AND A PART OF US ALL!

The Enantiomorph
The Enantiomorph is the cycle of Rebel (Lorkhan) overthrowing King (Akatosh), which in turn makes him the King to be overthrown by the Rebel. It was first used to refer to this relationship as manifest in Tiber Septim and the Underking. The Genesis section above is a must-read.

In addition, none of these men were avatars of Shor, who resides in Sovngarde with the souls of all Nord Heroes. Shor, descended, diminished, no longer a full member of the nine, but still an honorable ada, and guardian of the honored dead.

Shezarr fought against the Ayleids (the ‘Heartland Highelves’) on mankind’s behalf. Then, for some unknown reason, he vanishes from the stage (presumably to help other humans elsewhere), and, without his leadership, the Ayleids conquer the humans and enslave them.

I take this information from TES games themselves, not two pieces of obscure lore that don't fit with the events of all TES games main stories.

Possible dragonborn? He was Ysmir. There's no room for possible. He physically died once. His spirit was scattered and reformed multiple times. Wanna know why? Because he was Shor.


You keep saying that souls were used to make the Mantella. The Mantella was created to house a soul. You don't make soul gems by trapping souls in them. His soul was trapped in the Mantella just as much as Wulfharth's and Tiber's. How many more times must I explain this?



Hjalti Early-Beard was not a Nord. He was a Breton. He hailed from Alcaire, in High Rock. Tiber Septim was a Cyrodiil. Talos was a Breton, (Hjalti) a Nord (Ysmir), and a Cyrodiil (Zurin Arctus). They're all the same.

READ DAMNIT!

Read the whole thing why don't you? You'll be a better person for it!


So now you're saying that Shezzarines don't even exist? Wow, man. I mean... wow.

Here's something for you:

Which proves that Shor was live and kicking after his death in the Dawn.


Sorry but both Five Songs of King Wulfharth and The Arcturian Heresy appear ingame.

They've appeared since Morrowind through Skyrim at that, the Heresy and The Songs of Wulfarth.

Sorry but both Five Songs of King Wulfharth and The Arcturian Heresy appear ingame.

First, I never said that Wulfharth did not live during the time of Alessian era, quite the opposite; he was the Nord King that drove them out of Skyrim and restored the traditional Nordic pantheon. And I agree, he did reign from the late 400's (the 480's, to be exact) to the early 500's 1E. I have said nothing to deny this, sorry if you misunderstood.

Second, Yes, Shor IS dead, that is the whole point. He is diminished, no longer a member of the nine divines, but (I think) still an ada. He rules a small portion of Aetherius (Sovngarde) that is for a specific type of person (brave Nords), but he is unable to manifest fully there (the Nord Heroes tell you this in TES V, to explain why his throne is empty) and does not have the power to drive Alduin from his realm. He must ask the Dragonborn to do this in his stead, along with Gormlaith, Hakon and Felldir.

Third, I maintain that the Dragonbreak never happened, but was merely a scholarly mistake that got blown way out of proportion during the chaotic end of the Third Era. And, again, that song of Wulfarth (Old Knocker) is a MYTH, it does not mesh at all with Alduin's abilities or status (being transported into the Fourth Era).

Fourth, Of course Jurgen Windcaller existed, I have NEVER denied that. Which Battle of Red Mountain are you refering to? I was a bit confused by refernces to that in TES V. Was it when the the First Empire of the Nords was thrown out of Morrowind by the Dunmer/Dwemer alliance? Or was it during one of the many Nord invasions?

That the books appear in the game means that, canonically, the books exist. That doesn't mean that they are, therefore, perfectly true.

The issue with The Arcturian Heresy is that, in TES II, we met the Underking, who calls himself Zurin Arctus, and The Arcturian Heresy contradicts what he said. That suggests that either the book is wrong, or the Underking is lying or confused. Both are possibilities, but I think we would have to lean towards the Underking's account being the correct one, given the importance of having met him near the conclusion of TES II.

Nah, I misread your post.



This does not refute him being Lorkhan. I thought they said Shor won't manifest because he is too awesome for your mortal eyes to see. And he can't manifest in the Aurbis because he is bound (or was) to Mundus via his Heart.




Stories are the foundation of the Aurbis. That's how the Aedra created Mundus: they told a story.

It could simply be a different Alduin. Shor fights the dead Alduin of the previous kalpa, with the new Alduin having been dragonbroke. Or, Orkey pulled him out of the timestream and Shor punched him back in.

The Battle of Red Mountain is the Battle of Red Mountain. The one where Nerevar died, the Tribunal ascended, the Dwemer disappeared, ect.

That the books appear in the game means that, canonically, the books exist. That doesn't mean that they are, therefore, perfectly true.

The issue with The Arcturian Heresy is that, in TES II, we met the Underking, who calls himself Zurin Arctus, and The Arcturian Heresy contradicts what he said. That suggests that either the book is wrong, or the Underking is lying or confused. Both are possibilities, but I think we would have to lean towards the Underking's account being the correct one, given the importance of having met him near the conclusion of TES II.

Well the Underking is Zurin Arctus, but Underking as I've said is a title, not a name. The title originally belonged to Wulfharth. AH doesn't contradict that. It just states that Underking and Ysmir originally referred to Wulfharth, before Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus became parts of the same Oversoul. Numidium was designed to be powered by the Heart of Lorkhan. The Mantella was a workaround, but without the soul of Lorkhan the thing would never move. The fact that Zurin Arctus' soul is inside proves that he is an aspect of Lorkhan. AH only states that Ysmir was the original ghost of Shor. The OP doesn't even think Shor ever had any incarnation on Nirn, which is ridiculous. Everything he's saying goes against strongly established lore.

My theory: Wulfharth was Dragonborn (when you find out you were, a guard states stories said he was) and that a confused person attributed the actions of numerous Dragonborn to Wulfharth. Or that Talos was the re-incarnation of Wulfharth.

Could not a so-called "Shezzarine" be akin to the Drabonborn (all of them) and Akatosh? Meaning Shor gives a part of himself to form a mortal's soul? Said mortal would be linked to Shor, and could channel some of his power, but in the way Dragonborn channel Akatosh's power. If Zurin Arctus was such a "Shezzarine," Wulfharth would not be needed in the story (again, I think he die just once, in the first era); in addition, Wulfharth could not be both Dragonborn AND "Shezzarine."

Whatever the specifics, I maintain that Hjalti-who-became-Tiber-Septim was Dragonborn, not a "Shezzarine," and ascended to become Talos because of his good works.

Your comprehension of sources prooves the existance of tragic humour.

Whatever. I just fail to see the need for a "Shezzarine" apart their soul powering the Numidium. If there was an alternative power source in lore, I would pounce on it.

Also, I write "Shezzarine" in quotes because I think that Shezzar was probably an invention by St. Alessia to make Shor kosher for the Cyrodiil people; a better term for what I think Zurin Arctus might have been is 'Shorine'.

I was under the impression that the Battle of Red Mountain that Jurgen Windcaller fought at was during the War of Succession, when Morrowind and High Rock split away from the First Empire of the Nords, in the early 1E 400's. The Battle of Red Mountain in which Nerevar died ended the War of First Council, which lasted from 1E 688-700, and which was between the Chimer and the Dwemer, not the Nords.

As for Shor being "too awesome" for us to see, why could you see Tsun? Why could you see Avatars of Mara and Talos in TES III? Why can you see dozens of Daedric Princes in TES games, both on Mundus and in Oblivion? I think it is more likely that Shor is unable to show himself, having been diminished by his death and (as you said) having a good part of him forming Mundus along with the other divines. And again, as a diminished ada, I don't think Shor is powerful enough to directly fight Alduin. The Aedra never intervene directly in mortal affairs, using champions (like Nevarrine, Hero of Cyrodiil, the Dragonborn of Skyrim) as their proxies. In fact, unless I am mistaken, Aedra are UNABLE to directly manifest their forms (unlike Daedra, who can), as if they did Mundus would fly apart.

Also, I write "Shezzarine" in quotes because I think that Shezzar was probably an invention by St. Alessia to make Shor kosher for the Cyrodiil people; a better term for what I think Zurin Arctus might have been is 'Shorine'.