Hello everyone. I have a question that I've been curious about for awhile now. Simply put, are Breton names regional in High Rock?

I ask this because, as well all know, Daggerfall and Arena had Bretons using English names. Then when Morrowind came around, all the way to Skyrim, the Bretons possessed French names - except for the Reachmen, who were distinguished from the regular Bretons with Celtic names. I'm not sure what names are used primarily for Bretons in Online - if anyone can fill me in, please feel free to let me know in this topic.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand - I've done some reading on various forums and had some mixed answers. Some people claim that all Bretons use French names, while others say it depends on the region of High Rock a Breton comes from that determines their name. Although, people who answered with the latter are a bit divided on what region has what style of name, if this is true - some claiming that Wayrest possesses French names while Daggerfall has English names. Some say Camlorn have the English names and Daggerfall is a combination of all the naming types. This is the one thing that bothered me about Bretons - their lore is interesting and their history as well, but there seem to be an issue regarding their naming conventions, be it a lack of consistency or something else entirely.

I'd be more than happy to read your answers or ideas regarding this, and I can post one of the forum links as well - see what you all think of the reasoning behind the poster's choice of names per region.

http://www.darkcreations.org/forums/topic/5562-high-rock-naming-conventions/

Thank you.

Travelling through High Rock in ESO, I feel like the further west you travel, the more frequently you start to encounter Celtic/Brythonic names. I noticed quite high numbers around Evermore (Bangkorai) and a few (notably a peasant-class/beggar fellow near between the bank and the smithy) in Shornhelm (Rivenspire). Still, the majority still have French/Anglo-Saxon names, even in those cities.

My theory for why the further West you go the more Celt/Ancient-Briton names you encounter is that, the Direnni likely landed and maintained the most influence in the south-east corner of High Rock (around the Iliac Bay and Isle of Balfiera) and I think the Romance language naming convention of the Bretons was one of the many cultural traditions they inherited from the ruling Altmer of the Direnni. If you look at male Altmer naming, you see many instances of names ending in "-o"; Calcelmo, Mannimarco, Ocato, Ancano etc. That strikes me as a markedly Italian pattern. Now, of course, that is an Italian trait and Bretons most often have French sounding names, but, in the real world, those are both Romance langauges and I don't think its too much of a stretch to presume that the Romance influence on Breton names comes from the influence of the elven Hegemony that ruled over High Rock for so long.

It makes sense that you'd get more Celtic/Brythonic names as you go west because, historically, Direnni influence probably decreased as you got closer to the Reach/Skyrim so the native Bretons (and their ancestors, the Northern Nedes) would be less influenced by their cultural practices. And instead, you'd get more Celt names which I think come from the pre-Direnni Nedic cultures.

The reason why I think Celtic naming convention is so prevalent in the Reach is because I think the Hegemony had barely any impact on the native humans of the region with Reachmen historically being so resistant to outsider invasions.

I'm about to go on ESO to sort a few things, I can take a quick look for some non-French names I've noticed scattered about in the cities I mentioned.

EDIT:

Atypical/Old French(?) names in Evermore: Pugereau Dubosc (last name particularly stands out to me), Herric, Phylgaux Dugot (female), Airde, Hescot, Ygerne, Dorys (Greek origin apparently)

Shornhelm: Vignac, Edaurd Celd, Ursuline Dulrusc, Colane Sorick, Danwyche (the guy I really noticed), Trierre Stenric

Those (sur)names ending in -sc or hard -c's seem to me to be notably non-Renaissance-era French. Maybe they're more real-world Breton, which would be a nice halfway between French and Celtic and in lore might be a reflection of early Breton naming convention that keeps a Nedic (Celtic) feel.

Their naming conventions have changed a bit since Daggerfall. In Arena and Daggerfall, all Bretons had procedurally generated English or semi-Anglican sounding names. Starting with Morrowind (or Redguard), this changed to generally French sounding names.

In the very least, Skyrim established that natives of the Reach have Celtic sounding names; they're distinct from other Bretons. Think of the Bretons in Markarth: Madanach, Duoch, Cedran, Braig, Bothela, Muiri. The exception being Anton Virane, the Breton chef in Understone Keep, who emphasizes that he hails from Daggerfall and is not a native son of the Reach.

One way to reconcile the differences between Breton names is to say that Bretons from the Iliac Bay region have the English kind of names we see in TESII, other Bretons have French sounding names, and the natives of the Reach and Western Reach have Celtic-influenced names. Or, you could just say they retconned it between Daggerfall and Morrowind.

Airde and Danwyche look very Celtic, especially Danwyche-- becomes in French (compare, war vs. guerre). Herric could be Celtic or Germanic or French of Germanic origin. Dubosc/Dulrusc look French of Celtic origin. An -aux ending on a female name is really bizarre...

It's been awhile since I played Skyrim - didn't realize Anton stated he was from Daggerfall. And yeah - I remember the distinction between the regular Bretons and the Reachmen native to areas like Markarth.

However, now I'm curious - if the names of Bretons in the Iliac Bay region were to be English, Anton Virane would stick out because that sounds very French.

This also has me wondering what Breton NPC names are like in the Online version of Daggerfall, seeing as its part of the Iliac Bay area, as well as Wayrest. If there are a lot of French names in both regions, or at least Daggerfall, that could confirm the TES and TES II Breton names were retconned.

Yeah, there's some interesting implications from some of those names. I think quite a few of them are made-up names based on real-world examples, but given a purposeful Franco-Celtic flare (generally or in choice of spelling). For example, Herric seems to be an alteration on real-world 'Herrick', a name of Norse/Germanic origin, Airde seems inspired by real-world Scottish surname 'Aird' or a shortening of the longer Gaelic name 'Airdsgainne'.

It seems sensible for the devs to maybe create their own names/alter existing ones, rather than stick to using real-world examples exclusively. It gives them more opportunity for diversity with a potentially infinite number of NPCs and they can create a "vibe" for the naming convention in certain areas (that hint to lore implications based on real-world aesthetics) rather than being completely burdened by constant and explicit links to real-world etymology.

Yes, most of the Breton names are invented to resemble French--surnames in particular. Reminds me of a big pet peeve in Dragon Age: Inquisition. There was a merchant named Pierre-Marie [surname here]. Now, there's a perfectly rational reason why real French men have compound names with Marie, namely in reverence for the Virgin Mary. But the Virgin Mary doesn't exist in Thedas. I could have bought Pierre-Andraste, but Pierre-Marie? Really? Much better to invent French-sounding names than to use real ones.

Interesting! Though, for people like me, who aren't aware of the RL background behind the use of Marie in surnames, the devs converting it to a lore appropriate Andraste would have probably set conspiracy theories flying (ie. "Does that mean they're related to Andraste?!?!")!

The cool thing about using made up names is that you can try to blend two real-world naming conventions together to make names that sound reminiscent of two separate language groups. Like Romance/Germanic/Celtic that we seem to be noticing in Breton naming, which I think can be explained as a combination of traditional Nedic naming with Altmer and Nordic influence spanning centuries of cultural clashes and cross-pollination.

Lol, my favorite example of real-world creeping into game-universe has to be one of the Nords in Skyrim referencing "different strokes for different folks". It's a perfectly fine phrase for the setting, but in real life it originates from a Sly & the Family Stone song. Not to mention NPCs saying "okay", which supposedly originated in America in the 1800s. It's not lore-breaking in the slightest, but it makes me wonder where those terms originated in Tamrielic history.

As for Daggerfall, it might be worth it to look at the text Arena and Daggerfall piece together to create Breton names. Most of it is Englishish, like Master+croft or Wick+sly, but others are semi-celtic, like Alabywyr or whatnot. Then there's the names of non-random NPCs in Daggerfall, like Gothryd, Eadwyre, or Elysana.

I like to think that King Lysandus is descended from Reachmen, myself - his name, his sons' name, and everything about mama Nulfaga kind of connects with what Skyrim established for Reachmen. To reconcile Anton Virane, perhaps Daggerfall is just so cosmopolitan that nobody cares.

Just a note that "croft" is actually Irish. And hearing people use "okay" in fantasy (or worse, period films) drives me crazy. Oddly, that particular one doesn't bother me in the Dragon Age franchise; Dragon Age may masquerade as medieval fantasy but it's thoroughly and unabashedly modern. I think that's why I overlook many of the mistakes it makes that I'm less forgiving of in TES, which does generally take its setting more seriously.

As has been said, one cannot put too much emphasis on names from Arena/Daggerfall - the naming Convention changed With Redguard/Morrowind. This does not only apply to Bretons, but to other races too - e.g. Argonians in Arena/Daggerfall have Greek/Roman-sounding names... And in Arena/Daggerfall all races except Redguard (and possibly Khajiit?) have surnames, IIRC, while from Redguard on, it is only the Imperials, Dunmer and Bretons that have surnames, while Nords tend to have clan-names (e.g. Battleborn) or descriptive names (i.e. Red-Spear).

You know, this is true. I wonder then, if we can still consider the names ofnon-randomly generated characters. A good amount of NPCs from Daggerfall are referenced or straight up appear in later games; all of the NPCs on http://uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:People seem to follow generic fantasy conventions.

Uncle Sweetshare just sneezed.

TES (And many other fantasy settings) tend to be a bit of a anachronism stew really. I'm actually a little more forgiving of TES in it in that there tend to be a lot of different writers for dialogue and correspondences. Can't expect it to be perfect all the time, so on and so forth.

TES has plenty of in-jokes, but I feel like TES makes an attempt to build a cohesive world (granted one that's inspired by the entire range from Antiquity to the Renaissance), whereas behind a shallow pretense of high fantasy Dragon Age is explicitly post-modern.

EDIT: Though in general, most modern fantasy (post-Tolkien) is a bit too modern for my tastes.

Update: I had a little run around Daggerfall and Wayrest to investigate the names of local Bretons (they're both very cosmopolitan/pluralist cites so it was hard to find the Bretons in all the Altmer/Redguards/Orcs!).

In Daggerfall, practically everyone and their mother had a French-esque name. I noticed one incidence of someone's surname ending in that Celtish "-sc".

Wayrest was slightly different. It seemed like, again, the majority of people had Francophonic names, but I did noticed a couple of interesting exceptions. A gentleman with a name inspired by Delane, which can conveniently come from either Norman (French) or Irish origins - "del aunaie" and "Dubhshlaine" respectively. Someone had the name Coyne which is of Irish origin again. I saw a 'Gridgette' which is a bastardisation of Bridget, an Irish name given a French twinge.

So, from this, I maintain the notion that the further you get away from the big cities (previously Direnni strongholds, built upon by the emancipated Bretons) and the further east you travel through High Rock, the more likely you are to bump into Bretons with atypical, non-French names, likely with a Celtic air to them. As I posited earlier, I think this is because the Bretons inherited Romance-esque etymology from the Direnni (along with loads of other fundamental aspects to their culture), but Celtic-esque names come from pre-Direnni times when the Bretons were simply Northern Nedes and would likely all have names similar to contemporary Reachmen, a people of Nedic stock largely unaffected by outside cultures.

Fascinating! I guess the Mer ancestry of the Bretons affected more than just their biology then. Nedic naming conventions being mixed with Merish, Romance-inspired naming conventions to create a new set of conventions for names in High Rock. I guess that might also explain Imperial names differing from Nordic names and their evolution in Skyrim from Latin to Italian - seeing as Imperials are supposed to have, at least in Nibenean cases, some Elvish and Akaviri ancestry. Thank you for sharing this though Rob. ....Or Bob. ....Rob-Bob?

Still, you mentioned that Daggerfall had a majority of French-esque names, and Wayrest did as well though with a few more exceptions than Daggerfall - does that confirm Arena and Daggerfall's naming for Bretons was retconned then and French is the primary inspiration for Breton names - or at least the civilized, western High Rock Bretons? I ask this because considering the timeline for Arena and Daggerfall compared to Online - those Bretons are from the 2nd Era, whereas Arena and Daggerfall take place in the 3rd Era. Does that confirm a retcon?

No problem! Rob's cool! Though, I'm happy to be called anything as long as it's not too slanderous.

The whole Romance influence from the elves is just a personal theory of mine. I wouldn't give it too much credence! Though, I do feel like it fits the pattern of where Direnni power bases likely were compared with the spread and shape of Breton etymology.

I hadn't actually considered what affect the idea of Romance naming flair being passed from elves to humans might have outside of High Rock (especially with so much Imperial naming coming from Latin ...the primary Romance language!!). But, its possible that a similar thing might have occured in Cyrodiil too. Imperial names are often Latin-inspired. That might be unrelated to the development of naming in High Rock or it might be that the Cyrodiils also inherited their naming convention from their elven overlords as well (and maybe the Akaviri too!). Though, Ayleidoon does strike me as quite different from Altmer Aldmeri-speak. It might be the case that Nedic languages in the Northern Tamriel came from Celtic-esque routes and those of Central Tamriel came from Latin-esque routes. Both are "old world" languages, so they do bring that air of archaic credibility to each group. Either way, we have no idea how much time there was between either groups (speculated) migration from Atmora, so we can't say anything for sure about the history of these primordial peoples' languages.

I always got the impression that Imperial (Nibenean) names seemingly evolving from Latin to more contemporary Italian was implying the passage of time in Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. It may not be implicit of the same kind of patterns I postulate on occuring in High Rock.

It isn't necessarily the case that the naming patterns of Arena and Daggerfall have been retconned and are no longer relevant. You have to remember that ESO is set some 800 years(?) before either of those games takes place. That's plenty of time for naming conventions to change (just look at the difference in Imperial naming you mentioned between TES:IV and V). Maybe the Anglo-Saxon influence on Breton names in those games comes from several centuries of peaceful interaction and intermingling between the Bretons and Nords under the Third Empire. It would make sense for a Germanic influence to creep into High Rock from Skyrim very gradually over many hundreds of years of peace.

I think the general rule we can take from our discussion here is that if it sounds vaguely French, Old English/Anglo-Germanic, Brittonic or Celtic (Cornish, Welsh, RL Breton), then it will probably make a good Breton name. Maybe reserve Scottish/Irish Gaelic names for the Reachmen to keep them somewhat distinct!

Even several of the Orcs have Breton names!

A very good and interesting point! One http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bisquelas_the_Bard stands out in particular. I wonder what the story is with some of the less eccentric orcs. I noticed at least one with a Breton-ish last name. Maybe he married into a well to do family in the city and thought it more appropriate (read: profitable) to adopt their name rather than have his wife/husband take his name instead.

Yeah I find it very interesting, maybe he was adopted, married in, took a Breton name for another reason? There's another Orc watching to see if any ships crash, he has a Breton first and last name as well.

Mm. Maybe Breton adoptive parents are less picky than one might expect! At least at the time of the Covenant.

I guess that makes sense - the Nord-Breton intermingling affecting their names. I still find it odd though and a bit confusing - the whole issue with Breton names makes me steer clear of them unless I know what the best inspiration for civilized High Rock Bretons are. I can never see myself interested in the Reachmen...

Sorry, rambling-mode over.

I've started assuming that names are a good shorthand for describing how the various races have interacted with one another in the Merethic and early first era, and which facets of certain Earthly (and fantasy) cultures they most embody.

The Cyrodiil taking their Roman names from the Latin, Greek, Spanish and Celtic mishmash (by way of Tolkien's Quenya) of the Aldmer alludes to their civilisation being built on the remains of an older one, and their cultural emphasis on organized military excellence, exogamy, trade and infrastructure. The slow change to Italian can be telling us that their Imperial ambitions are faltering, and that they are fracturing under the weight of their own heavy system.

The Nords are decidedly Scandinavian. Very distantly related to the elves (in the same way that Latin and proto-Norse are both Indo-European), they are, like real-world Nords, in a complex relationship with the south. Trade and cultural exchange often take a back seat to war.

The Bretons, then, seem to be most descended both ethnically and culturally from the Nedes, who are probably an indigenous human group that, unlike the Nords, never left Tamriel. The Celts were in Western Europe for quite some time before the Latin, and then later Germanic peoples arrived, and the Celtic names for Bretons appear to show that they, too, are negotiating between two expanding powers and their own culture. Elven influence in the cities resulting in French names reflects this, as does the fact of Reachmen and rural Bretons keeping Celtic names.

*Note: I'm not saying there is a 1-to-1 comparison in cultures for Tamriel and Earth, but that the naming conventions are metaphors for how those cultures behave and interact. This is why, in the example of the Bretons, Celtic represents the cultural space between Germanic (Nords) and Elves (Latin), despite Latin being a shorthand for Imperials elsewhere. It's a loose comparison meant to help, not to completely define them.

Jeeze, I said the word 'culture' or 'cultural' too much just now.

TLDR; if you want a 'civilized' Breton, pick a French name.

I guess French is the general inspiration for civilized Bretons from places like Daggerfall or Wayrest - any place where there was Direnni/Elven influence in High Rock - then. ;P

Seriously though, although it's an assumption you've made regarding the names of Imperials, Nords, and Bretons and their cultures, it makes sense. Well said, Sch.

But, they're so delightfully colourful (read: violent)!!