Is it possible to play the game beyond about level 35 without resorting to smithing/enchanting/magic or, maybe, alchemy?

When I started I wanted a sneaky thief/assassin who did not craft or do spells and I used my perks accordingly and the weapons that came my way (notably Chillrend, a fire dealing bow and some good, at the time, daggers). However, by the time I hit the mid-thirties I found that my weapons no longer cut the mustard and I was, despite having 100 sneak, getting into too many melees that my character was not designed to deal with (no armour worth the name). At the same time I was struggling to find, in shops or dungeons, any decent new weapons.

I could kill just about anything if I could get into a backstab position, and, if I could stay hidden, I'd take down anything with my bow, eventually. However, despite what some have posted here, my experience is that it is not always possible to sneak up behind an enemy and it is not always possible to stay hidden. For a start, the Forsworn in particular seem to be equipped with some sort of radar that enables some of them to find me at night when I am unmoving in the deepest of shadows. When you have very low armour and are getting mobbed you need weapons that will take down each enemy very quickly and mine could no longer do that.

I put a couple of perks into alchemy and stole all the decent poisons I could find. Frankly, it didn't do it - the poisons weren't good enough and anyway are one shot weapons. Having a poisoned blade in a fight against five Forsworn or bandits can't help much - the first one might go down, but the four others are still going to be there and I hate the idea of stepping out of the moment to access my inventory in the middle of a fight, feels like cheating to me.

So, better weapons seemed to be the answer and, as I couldn't find or buy any, that meant smithing and, in the longer view, enchantment or, to step right outside role, magic. I am now at level fifty and have Smithing at a 100, which means I have been able to improve all my weapons to at least flawless, and can survive the fights when they come. I am also putting such perks as come my way into enchanting beacuse if I can't increase my weapons further, sooner or later I'll have to make my own.

Which brings me back to where I started, can one play at high levels without resorting to smithing/enchanting/magic or, maybe, alchemy?

As someone with almost exactly the same kind of built, it was my experience that around level 35-40 I started dying alot. This was not a problem in shadowy caves and dungeons where I could easily hide, but a major nuisance when facing outdoor mobs. I was using a glass mace as my melee weapon at the time and the damage it dealt was just too low when facing a bandit chief in steel plate armor.

It was at this point I decided to start boosting my smithing and enchanting. At first I began encorporating these aspects to my normal gameplay; as in loot a dungeon, improve the items picked up, enchant them and sell them on. However, after a while I was starting to get my ass handed to me in several of the dungeons too. This was the point where I just power levelled both smithing and enchanting, ending up with a ton of iron daggers with absorb health enchantment.

So in my opinion: yes, you can play the game as an assissin/thief without using smithing/enchanting/magic/alchemy. However some levelled opponents will be very tough to deal with. Have a lot of healing potions.

smithing levels raise the amount you can improve weapons and armor even without perks

I suppose without getting into arguements about which thing is more important than anything else, I have found that being able to enhance my armor and weapons even when I didn't craft them is very useful.

without perks I'd just recommend remembering to enhance before you enchant, if you're an enchanter.

Smithing isn't essential to keeping up with the game as you level up, though it will make your battles easier.

In my opinion, Enchanting isn't necessary at all because I've never used it!

Smithing really only helps you get good gear quicker. With enough smithing skill (boosted by potions and/or enchanted items) then you can improve any item that can be improved to legendary status even without the perks, you just can't make them yourself. Its well worth getting Arcane Blacksmith though. Only 2 perks and without it you can't improve enchanted weapons and armour
That said I usually take smithing. You will get that good gear a lot quicker

Alchemy isn't neccessary either. The game throws potions at you. If you take the alchemy perks you can make a lot better but you don't need them. The poisons are a lot more powerful than the ones you can find buy though

Enchanting is the most powerful if only for the perk Extra Effect. 2 effects on every item is very powerful

Take all 3 and invest heavily in perks and you can be massively overpowered whatever difficulty you play at so long as you make sure to keep your combat skills good

My main is level 51 with no crafting perks whatsoever. He slaughters everything he faces. However, he does have support from his Conjured creatures and has maxed Light Armour.

He actually has 14 or so unspent perks. I have no idea what to do with them -flails-

Yes it's possible to play without crafting...i play mage with robes and didn't craft or enchant anything til lvl 55

The only truly necessary tree is Smithing. Alchemy and Enchant are pointless.

This game ultimately is about running around killing mobs. 4 things are needed to complete this task. Healing, physical protection, magic protection, damage.
-healing, via shop potions, alchemy potions, restoration spells
-magic protection, enchanted gear via enchant or shops
-physical protection - smithing ONLY
-damage - smithing ONLY (although some increase can be made via enchant/alchemy too)

And depending on selected difficulty smithing matters less and less, but arcane smithing is pretty much a must have, to keep upgrading shopped equip.

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Getting the Lord stone helps for a start...+50 armour and +25% magic resistance

My first character didn't utilise Smithing until 50, Enchanting until 55 and I didn't use Alchemy at all.

what? enchanting and alchemy are pointless?
you obviously don't know what you can do with these skills, especially alchemy and especially for very little perks involved (just 7 means you can craft the most powerful potions still).

smithing is so easily leveled and gives such a big advantage i don't know why you wouldn't level it a little anyway. well my champ is a melee fighter, so i will eventually level it, but on my latest start on master everything was extremely tough, especially bleak falls barrow until i got some decent gear.
its also so easily leveled up, i spent maybe 5-8k gold leveled it to 80 and made straight ebony gear after finding a couple mines and getting the ore for free.

enchanting and alchemy are definitely less essential. you can go through the game without using those at all probably no problem, but the absolute advantage they give, especially alchemy, i don't know why you wouldn't other than just trying to have more of a challenge. honestly full alchemy with only 7 perks makes this game easy. the potions are insane.

smithing specifically however, i don't see why you would want to skip on it. even as a mage master, you can use heavy armor (enchant it with whatever bonus effects you want) and eventually it won't weigh anything or slow you down anyway, so you'll have the same bonuses as other sets, but also the highest armor rating. whats not to like?

I love when people read the titles of threads but nothing in the body of it, he is asking if they are pointless not saying are they.


That being said my thief does not use either because it does not fit his character build at all. He will have 100 in smithing but he never took the time to specialize in any certain type of material. No perks are needed IMO there are always ways to win battles.

i did read the body of it. and the entire post is pretty inaccurate. it wasn't the OP that said they were pointless, and to his point i addressed his question. it isn't essential but its so good either way you go i don't know why you'd want to pass it up. the perks are not necessary, but its so easily obtained and done so so quickly that you can have a massive boost in power by making that ebony or daedric gear so much sooner. i had ebony gear as early as level 20. but ya...

The thing is, shops dont sell tampered gear. Which biases the whole thing strongly in favor of smithing to rely on it for the better gear. I find it quite strange actually. And can only assume in future Addons legendary gear can actually be bought, or, even better, made by local smiths. You know an old powerful master smith makes the ultimate katana weapon etc etc. We even got one in Whiterun sitting on top of a cool forge. Cant tell me that he cant do an item of even "superior" quality.

Ncknck said what I was going to say. You can buy potions, you can buy enchantments, but you can't buy improved gear. If you want improved gear, you have to have smithing.

It's possible but tricky to play without improved gear. You're going to hit problems about lvl 35 as you figured out when good armor isn't dropping yet but you can't improve the less powerful armor. One way would be to take a lot of armor perks and get the Dwemer bonus. As far as damage dealing, companions plus a well-placed Thu'um can do a lot for crowd control. There are ways to manage. There are daedric artifacts out there which are good weapons even before being upgraded. Perks for weapons. Et cetera.

Many thanks to all that have replied to my question. I note that with the exception of Lord Bafford (who is silent on the point) those who have said they have risen to high level without crafting use magic instead.

I take Ncknck's point that smithing can provide jolly good benefits, so why would anyone want to pass on it. To which my answer would be partially its a role playing thing - I am playing a thief and an assassin, not a blacksmith - but more its a question of whether the game really does allow free play. Allerleirauh says that it is possible, but tricky, to play without improved weapons but seems (and I don't want to put words into her mouth here) to indicate that to compensate one needs armour and/or shouts (companions are less than beneficial with a stealth character). I'd prefer to leave the armour issue aside for the moment and concentrate on weapons.

My best melee weapon is the sword Chillrend, which I picked up at about level 20. By about level 35 it was pretty much obsolete as the damage it did was no longer sufficient to kill enemies quickly enough for me to survive in a fight. Once upgraded, using smithing, it is good enough again. Had I been able to find or buy a better weapon the smithing would not have been necessary, but I couldn't.

So, in a nutshell, in the absence of magic it seems that high smithing skill and at least two perks (to enable upgrading of enchanting items) are essential.

Not sure about Chillrend but a lot of the artifacts are leveled. So if you got it at a lower level you will indeed outgrow it.

Chillrend is leveled.

I main character has 100 smithing and 100 enchanting, I stopped enchanting anything as I got tired of just cutting things down even on master in 1 maybe 2 hits. on my currect play through I am not even using smithing at all other than stacking leather and ore for a later time. I can tell you the game is much harder when playing with base level weapons. Kind of enjoyable.

I have gotten to 100 in Smithing, Enchanting, and Alchemy as a supplement to my Battlemage (more battle than mage). I agree Smithing is the most essential. But Enchanting is essential too. With the potions you can buy (Enchanters Elixer) I can add 86 points of damage to my sword with double enchantments. That makes my sword one shot most things and take only a few shots with others. Even Ancient dragons go down quickly. I think that is an incredible advantage.

Alchemy is the third leg in the tent. Alchemy gives you as much money as the merchants have. It gives you something fun to do (collect ingredients wherever you go which I enjoy). It gives you something else fun to do -- make potions, trying to maximize their effects, and if you do need more power in your weapons (which I don't) it can do some really bad things to the creatures you hit. But it's probably not really essential, just fun. I will say this though. For blacksmithing potions, you cannot get potions from the store that get anywhere near what you can make. The best potion I could buy was I think +40% blacksmithing. My own potions are 102% at present and that makes all of my weapons and armors that much better. So not essential, but really helpful and very profitable.

Smithing: I like to get it up to at least 60, so I can improve arcane/enchanted equipment. However, there are no finer weapons than Daedric Swords and Bows, so yea, I guess I do go usually past the 60 mark.

Enchanting: I like to get the 25% in the Fire Enchantment, because I found that fire enchanted weapons do the most damage, since they continue to burn the target for a short time.

Alchemy: I've always used that skill on all my toons, but I never really leveled it (maybe put 1 or 2 perks into the base skill). At the beginning it's a money maker and then later on, you can make 11 seconds and + Paralyzing potions, which I've always have in my arsenal, for the really tough opponents.

My shadow warrior wore the DB armor and then the ancient assassin armor the whole time, but I improved it so it's Legendary. I also like to use "legendary" weapons, since the damage of the base weapons will remain rather low, as you level. I don't think we have an "Umbra" sword in the game, that will level with you. Now that would be sweet.