In oblivion, there were different racial abilitys, such as Summon Ancestor Guardian and a heal spell, or a protect spell. But these abilitys only lasted about 20 seconds and were only usable once per day. So I found them completely useless. And I figure thats what dragon shouts will be like.

I'd rather them spend time on features we would enjoy such as spell crafting rather than useless gimmicks.

I still don't see how the poll is ridiculous under the context set up in the original post. Basically it comes down to: is it worth sacrificing the old "superfluous" elements (in this case spellmaking) for these new additions (In this case dragon shouts)?

Poll results failed you then. 71% in favor of shouts.

I'm not sure if birthsigns are included or not, but lets hope they are more like http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=29917 for them and racial abilities. Make them run mostly in the background, so you don't have to go out of your way to use them (as it happens at times) and make them progressive.

and lore wise the Th'um doesn't use magika

The poll is flawed, as is all democracies in some form or another. If the correct amount of significance could be attributed to each individual vote, then we would see

How does sacrificing spell creation but having basically what consists of 'greater powers' contradictory? If you want to compare/contrast them, then I choose spell creation. Only a few of my characters are worthy, or have any initiative to go through the main quest anyway. What does my Argonian witch doctor, or vampire playboy care about dragons, rebellion, or general Skyrim turmoil? He does care about making his unique curse spells, unique illusion spells, respectively though.

Look at it this way there adding dragon shouts im guessing for lore purposes. spell making is till there but its less boring now as some one in this thread already said you can combine spells with the DW feature in a way your combining two other spells to make one powerful new spell... in a way a lot of the old systems are still there such as the class system its just a matter if there there so you can see them or if there in the background running... the Class thing will always be there due to the ability's will you choose one any more? in a way yes due to the ability's you go in to spell creation is the same way its still there but its not as apparent. they say they get rid of them but to get rid of classes they must get rid of the skill set and in an RPG they wouldn't do something like that. they said they got rid of spell making but they just made it better by making it a DW feature. no matter how you look at it the skills are still there there just running in the background.

No.

As for the original post, spears and some of the skills I can agree with being superflous in this context, spears in that it's just 1 type of weapon that would take a lot of extra work animation wise to get working, and possibly in programming as well seeing as they'd probably want enemies to utilize different tactics with them taking into account their longer reach, and the removed skills seems to have been added into the perk trees instead so not really a loss as much as increased customizeability. Spell making however I think we've all agreed upon isn't really (possibly) removed due to being superflous but rather from not fitting into what beth wants magic to be in their game atm, and pitting it against dragon shouts which seems a necessity for dragon killing as well as the main story makes for a not so good poll.

Regardless, I've never really understood what it is with people and spellmaking. Sure, you get to combine spells, and to some extent be able to make a few really cool ones that fit into your play style, but the majority of examples people bring up in its defense as customized spells ae just combinations of 2 or 3 effects. By the looks of it could easily be done in Skyrim as well by either casting 2 different spells at once or a few in succesion, which imo is a more enjoyable way of using magic. The only ones I really see we might lose without spellmaking are the ones going a bit outside the box with having negative effects on self when cast, and these only give some extra cool effect to the spell which although sad to lose wouldn't really make that much of a difference. What exactly is it all of you people in love with spellmaking are afraid to lose? So far it just seems it's the ability to get many effects off at once, which although convenient makes for in my opinion boring gameplay, I'd rather actually feel like a mage and use lots of different spells depending on the situation instead of having them all nicely grouped up in a few all-in-all spells. I'd love for some better examples of spells that can't be done in other ways than spellmaking, but so far most examples people bring up are just combinations of 2 or 3 spells and could easily be done anyhow by just casting 2-3 times instead.

As for the hard to implement argument from beth, since we still don't know exactly how spellcasting will work I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss it as some of you have. The way I see it, is that if they were to implement it which I'm most certain they will if they find a good way of doing it, they would have to put a lot of restrictions into it for which effects you could combine or not. They would have to take into account how every effect would interact together with the various perks they're implementing, and depending on how magnitude of spells actually works they might even have to redo parts of it for magnitude to be changed. From what I've understood spell magnitude is now completely governed by your skill and scale with it. The work they'd need to put into it to get it all to work is in my opinion time better spent elsewhere, I still hope they'll find a good way to implement it though.

Why did you even waste you time typing that. You claim we are so irrelevant and meaningless, you might as well just sign off. And of course democracy is flawed. It's childish and naive to think everyone's voice equal

arggh double post

again.


If we have Enchanting, which has been confirmed several times over even in the recent interview, a significant portion of Spellmaking as is shouldnt be an issue. If I can make a sword already with healing and fire damage so that I can axe undead quicker. whats the issue with normal spellmaking?

First of all, this is wrong. Many people are claiming that there is no spellcrafting, but that is all BS, as Bethesda has not said definately either way.

Second of all, I can't vote on this, 'cause neither is better, I want BOTH!

Please make an option for both!

Two words. Dual wielding.

Done. Alot of people might be changing their votes haha

ok name those five spells, and if Xar has one he uses that isn't in the list we can see who wrong.

They haven't given any details though, I suspect enchanting may now just apply 1 effect to a weapon or amor. Otherwise yes, there would'nt be any difference between that and spellmaking.

Sadly, I think it is very likely that enchanting will be nothing like the old spellmaking

I agree Dragon Shouts to be redundant with magic spells, and the fact they've "globalized" a power that is technically Nord-exclusive (with the possible exception of that Tiber Septim fancy-pants) kinda annoys me, too.

Ok. It's not a choice between one or the other. You saying that does not make it so. Also, they do listen to the commmunity, so don't be so hyper critical of changes that are supposed to be beneficial for the fans. And are halberds/polearms in Skyrim somehow inferior to spears? I don't know why people seem to need "spears" so much.



TES is about customization, and it is about the lore. Beth controls both of those. You saying you disapprove of Oblivion for some reasons, however, is an opinion. I love Elder Scrolls too, but I don't presume to think I am somehow the "proper fanbase" and that the game should be catered to how I like specifically.



^That is so ignorant. Either you haven't heard or read about the Dragonshouts, or you haven't seen the trailer, or you're just guessing. If you have actually seen anything about the Dragonshouts, you should know that those weak OB racial abilities are nothing like them. Those "powers" were mostly useless spells, which is an entirely different issue which should be overhauled. However, about Dragonshouts, there is no way the game cannot have them, and I guarantee you there has never been a magic ability in TES as awesome and powerful as the various new abilitie they will provide.



OT: The poll is irrelevant. I am in favor of a spellcrafting system making a return, but I am also in favor of the new casting/DW system. I am also in favor of combining spell effects, which Bethesda is working on, but they sound like they don't think it will work.
Comparing and/or contrasting Dragonshouts and spellmaking is not a compelling argument for anything. They are unrelated. And people arguing over why spellmaking should be in or not need to simply look at the pros and cons and stop bickering.

Ex: Pros - Customization, more combinations available to magic-using players, and it fits lore from previous games
Cons - Level boosting (would be resolved in Skyrim's "fire-for-effect" leveling system), unnecessary complication with new magic system(?)

I see pros winning. If you don't like spellcrafting, then avoid it. If it is implemented properly, there are really no cons. Also, FYI, I barely ever used spellcrafting. I only really found it useful to me for boosting when I felt like it, but I found that extremely stupid. Luckily, boosting won't be an issue wiith Skyrim's system. So, I say both are great, but I won't care personally if spellcrafting is out. And @Xarnac - You'll miss out on good gaming with the other 2/3 of characters you use if it's out. I wouldn't make that call if I were you.

Indeed, not to mention they probably do things that can't be done with spells, and spells can do things dragon shouts can't do, and how exactly is smithing redundant or superfluous? As I see it, the ability to craft your own items is great for role-playing, you know, the thing RPGs are supposed to be about, they hardly sound redundant to me, and not having spears and spell making has nothing to do with those features being "redundant", Todd explained why they did not have spell making in when it was said it was not in the game, and the reason was to reduce the "spreadsheet" feel of magic and return the "magic" to it, I'm not sure why Bethesda would choose not to do spears, but I'm guessing it has nothing to do with them being redundant either.

And the fact that enchanting is in doesn't mean that spell making could be done easily, we don't know how enchanting works, we just know it exists. For all we know, it might work nothing like it did in past games, and even if it does, it's possible that enchantment effects and spell effects are seperate. After all, traditionally, in RPGs, enchanted items have usually been reletively simple, when you equip them, it applies some sort of beneficial effect to your character, or alternately, it may cause your attacks to apply a negative effect to your enemies, in essence, similar to what Oblivion did with enchantments, except in most games, enchanted weapons don't have limited charges, Morrowind was actually reletively unusual compared to other RPGs I've played in adding enchantments that basically behave like spells, except they draw from their own charges instead of your own magicka pool, with constant effect items being reletively rare, in any fantasy RPG, you can probably get a sword that does fire damage or a suit of armor that makes you stronger, with such a system, I'd imagine it would be pretty easy to allow you to create custom enchantments with effects and strengths of your choosing. Spells on the other hand tend to be not quite so simple. In a single game, you might have a wide variety of spells each with different effects, you might have spells which increase one's defense, or heal woulds, and you might see a wide variety of ways to use magic to hurt someone, not just in terms of basic effects like fire, ice and lightning, you might also see spells that don't fit into such elements like the magic missile spell in Dungeons and Dragons, even different spells with similar effects might have more than one way in which they are cast, you could, for example, have the ever popular fire ball spell, and then another fire spell that basically creates a flamethrower, if you want to be a little more creative, you can even have a spell that temporarily adds fire damage to your weapon. The key here is that all spells can feel distinctly different, even if they have similar effects, the way they're cast and the visuals for casting them can see to that. In Morrowind and Oblivion, on the other hand, the spells never felt that varied, and I blame this mostly on spell making, as to allow spell making to work, they needed to be able to reduce spells down to some basic variables that would be very easy to be altered and combined to form a basic spell. You have the effect, which determines what your spell does, you choose whether you want it to be cast on target, cast on touch, or cast on strike, thus, you have three ways the spell can be cast. And you can edit its duration, area of effect, and the strength of its effect, and really, that's where our problem lies, because taking a generic fireball spell and increasing the amount of damage it does or the size of its explosion doesn't actually make it feel like a new, unique spell, it just makes it feel like a more powerful version of the same spell, thus, diffedent spells tend to feel pretty much the same after a while, except in numbers, and when magic starts to feel like an issue of numbers, that's where your "spreadsheet feel" comes in. The only time two spells really feel distinct from each other is when they have entirely different basic effects, and even then, it doesn't always work like that, fire, frost and lightning for example don't feel very different from each other because they basically do the exact same thing, they just have different visual effects, but at least say... charm feels like an entirely different spell from say, damage health, because it has a completely different effect, but two charm spells don't feel any different from each other. In the end, this not only made spells lack variety, but also diminished the room for creativity with them, it's rather hard to have one spell that does something really unique and original when you can have inifinite amounts of spells with the exact same effect, even my custom made spells never really felt like my own original creations because of this, and I didn't make custom spells because I had an idea for a new, original spell, there would be no point in doing so as the game gave me no means to create a truly unique spell anyway. Now, I wouldn't say it's necessarily impossible to have spell making without making magic boring, but it's a lot more difficult to keep each spell unique and interesting when you have to make it possible to create your own ones in game, and if it were achieved, the spell making system would either have to be extremely complex, or players would be unable to create spells similar to a large amount of the ones found in the game.

Basically, removing spell making just allows Bethesda to do in the Elder Scrolls what other games have already done with their spells for quite some time, and for that, I'm not complaining about its absence. What's the point of being able to make my own spells if not only will the spells I create not feel like an actual unique creation of my own, but the system for creating spells also forces the premade spells to be boring as a result? I'd much rather take a list of spells made by Bethesda which I can't change, with each of them being distinct from each other, than the option to create my own spells, within the limits of a boring forumla.



I agree, spell making and dragon shouts are completely unrelated, and really need to be discussed seperately, with each feature being weighed for its own individual advantages or disadvantages.



I can't do that, because even if I don't use it myself, premade spells will still suffer from the limitations it forces on the game. And in past games, if you didn't use spell making, you'd eventually reach a point where the default spells just aren't powerful enough for your needs, though this could be adressed by allowing the effects of spells to become stronger as your stats and skills improve, but that simultaniously removes one of the main motivations to make spells in past games. In Morrowind and Oblivion, if I decided that my current main attack spell wasn't strong enough anymore but couldn't find a better one, I'd make one, but if the spell already becomes better as I get stronger, than what's the point of doing so?



Actually, in the podcast, when asked about the subject, Todd Howard said there was no spellmaking. Though keep in mind, the way he said it was that at the time, they did not plan to do it, unless they could make it work well, implying that we MIGHT see it, but only if they can do it well, which is a notion I agree with, if your going to do something, you should do it well, and I certainly wouldn't complain about having spell making if it can be done in a way that actually allows for unique and interesting spells, unfortunately, Bethesda has never succeeded at doing so before. Could they do it in the future? Maybe, but I've been shown nothing to indicate they can, as I've yet to see a single game include spell making and also have a good magic system, though considering that the only games I've seen with spell making in are Elder Scrolls games, that might not necessarily prove anything.

Don't really care about spears.

Skill merger is fine. With the new way you level, I'd say it's a requirement.

Spellcrafting worries me though. have the mentioed if item enchanting is also gone the way of the dodo? I know both of them could easily be abused to make overpowered skills/items/effects, but it had a ton of roleplay value. You didn't HAVE to abuse the enchanting and sppell making.

So why wont the premade spells still suffer limitations? What is actually different now than before? Lets say the fire spell now allows fireball, flamethrower, flame trap, point blank area of effect and big versions when equipped in both hands. How is this any different than each of those things just being a different effect. Because they aren't any different, this adds nothing to the game but how they are accessed via the controls. Any limitations in pre-made spells you see with spell making are there without it, because the spells aren't any different just people perception of them based on a new control structure.

And while the spells might now level up with me, do I want them to. If I am level 20 and am attacked by a rat do I want to use my full force fire spell, I'd think not. Just like an archer will go to iron arrows on weak targets instead of using a glass arrow. So in my mind, spells growing with me actually limits my spells more than in expands there use. When I can pick and choose how powerful of a spell to throw based on the enemy I have a deeper spell casting experience.

As surely said before somewhere between these 100000 pages, dragon shouts are basically dragon language power words that together form superior effects, dragons use them and to be able to slay them we must learn their language and use it against them.