Are we Talos?

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:29 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Lorkhan was a Daedra.

I'm still uncertain about the whole business with Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, Tiber Septim, and the Mantella, but I gather that understanding that is considered key to understanding the nature of Talos. And the general assumption has been, Wulfharth was a Shezarrine, and possibly all three were Shezarrines. Which, by itself, suggests an issue.

That is, I think it's a mistake to assume that an incarnation of a god has the same identity as the god; the connection seems to be more subtle than that. Even if Talos was originally a Shezarrine, or some sort of merging of more than one Shezarrine, Talos is not simply the same entity as Lorkhan; nor is he some lesser version of Lorkhan who has the same personality.

I do not think we can blithely assume that Lorkhan is a benevolent deity, or even that Lorkhan has a consistent purpose over time. Adventurous Willie has a theory that Lorkhan's battle to recover his heart from Red Mountain was a sermon on love. Haute Quêteure posited in a thread recently that it was Lorkhan who tore his own heart from his chest, in a fit of madness. I think that latter theory makes sense, and what Lorkhan's efforts at Red Mountain shows is that he cannot commit to a purpose. Pelinal Whitestrake, a Shezarrine, has something of this aspect of Lorkhan: Pelinal was a champion of oppressed humanity, a psychotic killer, and a terrifying monster who would unmake parts of the world.

Whatever else Talos is, I think he just is enough of Lorkhan to be able to occupy Lorkhan's throne, preventing Lorkhan himself from ever reclaiming it; but Talos himself emulates the Aedra, and acts as something of an Earthbone, empowering the Empire and stabilizing Nirn enough for the survival of the fragile concept of progress.
If you define Aedra as a being that helped in the construction of Mundus, he is one. If you define one as a Anuic counterpart to the Daedra, he is a Daedra.
User avatar
Emilie M
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:08 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:35 am

Perhaps in banning the worship of Talos, the Thalmor unintentionally set the stage for his return to mortality.
User avatar
Rudi Carter
 
Posts: 3365
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:09 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 7:38 am

Perhaps in banning the worship of Talos, the Thalmor unintentionally set the stage for his return to mortality.

This was my original theory. If a god-being starts losing worshipers, they seem to get very agitated.
To many coincidences...

On the question of whether Lorkhan is Aedra or Daedra, I thought the answer was simple. Neither. To me he is the aspect of Mundus itself, and the duel-natures of it's denizens.

And yes, sort of like Wulf. Most of the other Aedra have manifested on Mundus in one form or another as a titanic godly being, but Lorkahn visa-vie Talos, chose to manifest as one of their "children". Lorkahn's only determinable goal, it would seem, is to prevent the Aedra from destroying Magnus' beautiful creation, so to me it would make sense for him to gravitate toward helping people help themselves via a hero, as opposed to simply intervening as a god.
User avatar
Elea Rossi
 
Posts: 3554
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:59 pm

If you define Aedra as a being that helped in the construction of Mundus, he is one.
By that definition, Magnus is an Aedra. As far as I understood, an Aedra is an et'Ada that gave up a part of themselves in creation, and bound themselves to Mundus. Lorkhan doesn't qualify since he didn't give up a part of himself. He's not a Daedra either, though, since he doesn't reside in Oblivion (unless you believe Mankar on the point that Mundus is a place in Oblivion, and is Lorkhan's realm).
User avatar
Jordan Fletcher
 
Posts: 3355
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:27 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 9:17 pm

First off, on the topic of Talos Shrines still working... Considering the availability of enchantments in the TES universe, i wouldn't be surprised if the power of a shrine was due to enchantment and not the channeling of divine power.

Second, we do know Talos to be divine, because he had an Avatar in Morrowind. The point isn't really in question, and any statements to the contrary are false and highly politicised.

I would dispute, however, that Talos is representitive of Lorkhan in the pantheon. The Shezzarines have a somewhat genocidal streak in them, particularly shown by Wulfhearth, who sought nothing short of the extinction of Mer. Talos was willing to work with Elves, and through his Empire there was a greater push for racial harmony rather than the Man-Mer rivalry that Lorkhan represents. I would say that this, combined with his obvious Akatosh links through his Dragonblood, indicates he is more Akatosh/harmony aligned than Lorkhan could ever be.

In the same train of thought, the current Man-Mer conflict is representitive of his loss of power. Perhapse is wasn't Akatosh who appeared in the Temple of the One at all.

I do beleive that we're building towards something Lorkhan related, but i don't think the Dragonborn is the lost gods representitive. Neither do i beleive Talos was. I do, however, think there is something to be said about the Dovakiin's role as a new-come Talos.
User avatar
Travis
 
Posts: 3456
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:57 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 1:31 am

Ah, but Talos created the second god-construct from specs of the Heart drawn by the Dwemer. This endevour seems pretty Lorkahny to me.

And I would seriously dispute that Lorkahn has any care for the rivalry between the Man and Mer. Regardless of what the Altmer seem to think, all creatures of Tamriel are extensions of Shor, Nords chief among them perhaps.

I was also led to believe that Alduin was the End Times aspect of Akatosh, therefore the Dovahkiin could have no relationship with the Time-Dragon. Besides, which gods other than Lorkhan and Talos really give two s**ts about Mundus?
User avatar
Alexis Acevedo
 
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:58 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 12:22 am

I more view the battle between the Dovahkiin and Alduin as competing relfections of the same diety, rather than two gods battling it out. Time both creates and destroys, and the Alduin/Dovahkiin duality represents both the destructive and constructive nature of the Dragon of Time.

As for the Heart, there is still some contention on exactly who designed the Mantella. We don't know if Vivec gave Talos the information about it, if Zurin did it himself, or if Talos was involved in any way. To clairify, however, Talos did not 'design' the Numidium. He either recovered the pieces while fighting in Morrowind (Unlikely, since theres no indication the Tribunal ever destroyed it) or was given it by Vivec. Dagoth Ur recreated it as the Akulakhan, but he also had access to the heart...

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that all creatures of Mundus are of Lorkhan. We know Men are, but Mer are very adamant that they come directly from other Et'ada and that they are decended, not created. To the best of my knowlege, there is nothing to dispute this. It also seems that Lorkhan, while involved in the planning, was not involved in the creation of Mundus, so all mortals would be closer related to the Divines through Mundis than Lorkhan.
User avatar
Daniel Brown
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 11:21 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 9:16 am

But wasn't it the Heart of Lorkhan that stabilized Mundus and the Bones of the Earth?
And I believe when the Altmer tried to separate the aspects of Akatosh, the Time-Dragon told them he was not their progenitor. So who else but Shor?
User avatar
Laura Tempel
 
Posts: 3484
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:53 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 8:57 am

That sir, is pure win. Pay my respects to grace and virtue.

See, didn't I tell you you were awesome a few threads ago.
Indeed you did, thank you! :biggrin:
User avatar
CYCO JO-NATE
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:41 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 7:00 am

I've seen a couple of places that Talos supposedly manifests during the events of Morrowind, How/when/why/did this happen?
User avatar
Yama Pi
 
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:51 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 11:22 pm

There's some description http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:A_Lucky_Coin. In short, while visiting Red Gate, on the way to confront Dagoth Ur, you meet an old Imperial soldier named Wulf, who greets you in a friendly manner, and gives you his old lucky coin. No one else sees him. Later, if you make inquiries, you are told it must have been an aspect of Talos.

If I recall correctly, he gives something of a passing-on-the-torch speech, about how the future of the Empire is for you to decide. Now that I think about it, I'm curious about the exact speech. Does anyone have that?
User avatar
Adam Kriner
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:30 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:13 am

I told the Oracle about my encounter with the old Imperial veteran, the lucky coin he gave me, and the mark of good fortune -- the luck of the Emperor -- I have felt ever since. The Oracle thinks I have been visited by an aspect of Tiber Septim. She takes this as a sign of a great doom laid upon me by the gods


If its lucky, then why are you doomed?

And it implies, yet again, that some sort of mantelling is taking place, only much more subtle...
User avatar
BrEezy Baby
 
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:22 am

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 7:52 pm

It's a slightly odd usage: it's 'doom' in the sense of 'destiny'.

At that point in the storyline, this is no surprise: you've just completed a long series of heroic feats in order to demonstrate that you're the Nerevarine, the incarnation of Nerevar, Azura's chosen instrument to redress the crime of the murder of Nerevar, break the enchantments upon the Heart of Lorkhan, and defeat Dagoth Ur. Shortly before the end, Talos wishes you luck -- in a practical manner.
User avatar
Verity Hurding
 
Posts: 3455
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:29 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 6:57 pm

I more view the battle between the Dovahkiin and Alduin as competing relfections of the same diety, rather than two gods battling it out. Time both creates and destroys, and the Alduin/Dovahkiin duality represents both the destructive and constructive nature of the Dragon of Time.

As for the Heart, there is still some contention on exactly who designed the Mantella. We don't know if Vivec gave Talos the information about it, if Zurin did it himself, or if Talos was involved in any way. To clairify, however, Talos did not 'design' the Numidium. He either recovered the pieces while fighting in Morrowind (Unlikely, since theres no indication the Tribunal ever destroyed it) or was given it by Vivec. Dagoth Ur recreated it as the Akulakhan, but he also had access to the heart...

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that all creatures of Mundus are of Lorkhan. We know Men are, but Mer are very adamant that they come directly from other Et'ada and that they are decended, not created. To the best of my knowlege, there is nothing to dispute this. It also seems that Lorkhan, while involved in the planning, was not involved in the creation of Mundus, so all mortals would be closer related to the Divines through Mundis than Lorkhan.
Note that Alduin is the very picture of uncreation. By mannish belief, mortals were created from the Aedra, weakening the creators in the process. Alduin is doing just the opposite: he devours mortals to empower the divine (in this case Alduin himself), which if not stopped would culminate in the very reversal of creation itself.

Both Alduin and Kagrenac's actions seem to give more weight to the idea that mortals aren't depowered Aedra as the elves believe, but rather creations produced by the Aedra's sacrifice.
User avatar
Soraya Davy
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 9:41 am

It's a slightly odd usage: it's 'doom' in the sense of 'destiny'.

At that point in the storyline, this is no surprise: you've just completed a long series of heroic feats in order to demonstrate that you're the Nerevarine, the incarnation of Nerevar, Azura's chosen instrument to redress the crime of the murder of Nerevar, break the enchantments upon the Heart of Lorkhan, and defeat Dagoth Ur. Shortly before the end, Talos wishes you luck -- in a practical manner.
And announce that he's given up on the Empire.
User avatar
Camden Unglesbee
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:30 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 7:50 am

And announce that he's given up on the Empire.
He doesn't actually say that. He just says that change is coming, and change is usually nasty. That could be interpreted six ways from Loredas. He could've been talking about another Tower being destroyed and the Dragon Break to come. He could've been referring to the Oblivion crisis or Alduin's return or anything.
User avatar
u gone see
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:53 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 1:24 am

Besides, which gods other than Lorkhan and Talos really give two s**ts about Mundus?

Aka as a discrete entity does, he loves it in fact.

Anyways, no we aren't Talos. Though it may come to pass that we will walk a certain way, then Talos and Shezarr will follow suit.
User avatar
Jennifer Munroe
 
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:57 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 6:00 am

He doesn't actually say that. He just says that change is coming, and change is usually nasty. That could be interpreted six ways from Loredas. He could've been talking about another Tower being destroyed and the Dragon Break to come. He could've been referring to the Oblivion crisis or Alduin's return or anything.
No, he doesn't actually say it, but he gets within hair-splitting distance:

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty."
User avatar
xx_Jess_xx
 
Posts: 3371
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:01 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:24 am

No, he doesn't actually say it, but he gets within hair-splitting distance:
As I recall, the narration in the opening movie for Daggerfall talks about this being the end of the Third Era. I'm reading this as Talos saying that it's obvious to him that the Empire, in its current form, is coming to an end. It's curious that he is implicitly handing on the torch to the Nerevarine, who then confronts Dagoth Ur -- and then disappears from Tamriel. It's got to be a little disappointing to hand off a torch and see the torchbearer run off the track and away.

Another thing that strikes me: many of us have been assuming that the Dragonborn will become the new emperor, given how much the Dragonborn seems to mirror Talos. But that's hardly a "new idea". What would be?
User avatar
Joe Alvarado
 
Posts: 3467
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:13 pm

Post » Wed May 02, 2012 8:39 pm

No no guys...you've got it all wrong. We are obviously a manifest ot The God of Nobody Really Cares.
User avatar
Mylizards Dot com
 
Posts: 3379
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 1:59 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 9:43 am

Another thing that strikes me: many of us have been assuming that the Dragonborn will become the new emperor, given how much the Dragonborn seems to mirror Talos. But that's hardly a "new idea". What would be?

Democracy?
User avatar
Vicky Keeler
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:03 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 1:56 am

Democracy?
Nah, I vaguely recall some groupt redguards or yokudans being republican.
And if the "change" that Talos mentioned turns out to be democratization, I'll puke. There's no way that wouldn't be trite and cheesy as [censored]. ugh, now I have a masochistic urge to make a "Change" poster, Obama style, featuring Tiber Septim's vaunted visage instead.
User avatar
Katie Louise Ingram
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:10 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 4:15 am

Nah, I vaguely recall some groupt redguards or yokudans being republican.
And if the "change" that Talos mentioned turns out to be democratization, I'll puke. There's no way that wouldn't be trite and cheesy as [censored]. ugh, now I have a masochistic urge to make a "Change" poster, Obama style, featuring Tiber Septim's vaunted visage instead.
Just give him a mono brow or a big wart because change is ugly.
User avatar
Amy Melissa
 
Posts: 3390
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:35 pm

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 7:04 am

Just give him a mono brow or a big wart because change is ugly.
lol, well of course.
User avatar
Cagla Cali
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:36 am

Post » Thu May 03, 2012 3:44 am

I can't imagine who's voice would make a good Talos. A few years ago, I would've said Max Von Sydow, but well... yeah you know.

He should have a multi-layered voice, one with no accent, one British, and one Nordic.
User avatar
chirsty aggas
 
Posts: 3396
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion