The Change is the end of Empires. Instead, it will be the nation of Tamriel. Just Tamriel. Imperial Legion becomes the Tamriel Army, etc. It just feels more natural.

I don't know if that will ever happen. There's too much bad blood between a lot of the nations and people. I can't imagine anyone ever fully conquering Black Marsh or Hammerfell, and if the Empire is ever completely destroyed and the Cyrodiils just become the Heartland men again, whose to say Shezzar won't come back as another Pelinal-esque murder machine?

Just undertake a Thalmor-like genocide on all the old, conservative types of Tamriel. That way, we are stuck with the young, fresh-faced progressive types that have no wish to fight each other -- or fight at all, for that matter. I'll call this latter group of people 'hippies.'

The problem, however, might be trying to justify several genocides to the hippies, even if these genocides are to the hippies' advantage.

Sure it can. Just because it's been hit hard by an outside force doesn't mean it has to crumble.

As I said before:

Dovahkiin = the new Underking

Why? Ysmir is the word for Dragonborn..

Yeah, so was Martin and so was Mankar Cameron, so was every Emperor. None of them were in any kind of Enantiomorphic relationship. It's not a bounded group of "all Dragonborn must be Enantiomorphic." I haven't played through the main quest entirely yet, but so far nothing has struck me about the Dragonborn's Shezzar-like nature. Maybe I'll see when I get to Sovngarde, given the whole "dying and coming back" bit, but right now he simply strikes me as a hero. Perhaps if you push things a bit and stress the insanity bit of Akatosh, he is an Akatine come to smack Alduin down for starting the party too early.

Actually, that's not half-bad.

Can we get rid of this idea? The Dragonborn has too many uncertainties (race and gender chief among them) to assume such a public role. Bethesda'll never spring for it. They got away with it with Sheogorath because Sheogorath turned the CoC into Sheogorath and now I've invoked Sheogorath's name four times in the same sentence, excuse me while Norman flies a Sopwith Camel to the moon with Camilla.

What's not uncertain, though, are the characters Tullius and Ulfric. I had this crazy idea that whichever one wins* the civil war uses Dragonborn for a mantling gone horribly awry and the Dragonborn loses his/her heart.

It was just a fleeting idea though and I have no real argument for that. Not to mention the fan response; Rome burned when the Ministry of Truth fell.

*That, however, is a bit uncertain, though much less uncertain than specific details of the Dragonborn

Talos is NOT an Aedra and will NEVER be one.


It is amazing how people can confuse themselves...


Talos is human. He was gifted with the soul of a dragon. He also fulfilled what humans were originally given the ability to achieve. The ability to transcend their mortality...that is how he became divine


Again, Talos was never an Aedra, In fact unlike Pelinal and Morihaus, there is no 'Ada' in Talos...

vilnii, so you're saying there's no link between Talos and Lorkhan?

Unless of course, we do become the Emperor and start to unify Tamriel, which threatens the Thalmor and they consider the use of some crazy-ass magic, pull a Dwemer and end up destroying Nirn/Mundus, ending the kalpa. This would do two things:

1. Allow the Dragonborn to become Emperor (since several unrelated questlines have characters that say that it is your nature to dominate and conquer, and you are full of ambition and desire power).

2. Allow Bethesda a rather practical and nice way to reboot the Elder Scrolls like they've been considering.

Everybody wins except us diehards and Morrowind [censored].

Do you know how cheap it is to say "and they dropped a nuclear bomb and everyone who could ever remember died?"

No. Just, no. When you need an extermination event to fix a plot-hole, then you're doing it wrong. The Time-Break was clever, and Red Year didn't fix a plot-hole, but rather gave the Dunmer a more solid position as pariah Elves (which Dark Elves traditionally have occupied).

Wasn't Arkay supposed to have been a mortal? Wasn't the Daedra Prince Malacath formerly the Aedra Trinimac? Isn't an underlying theme of Merish religious beliefs that mortals are et'Ada trapped in the prison of mortality, and don't the Cult of the Dawn and the Thalmor represent efforts to break out of that prison? It seems to me that there's a recurring lesson that, even if the distinctions are meaningful, they are not immutable.

If the Dovahkiin is fated to become the Underking, rather than the Emperor, I don't think that changes my basic point, which is that this seems like a repetition of the refounding of the Empire at the beginning of the Third Era, and not "a new idea" at all.

When I first read the speech from Wulf, the first thing I thought of was that this was hinting that the Empire would collapse and be replaced with some sort of federal republic. Partly that comes from childhood training, but largely, I thought it came from the logic of the narrative -- the Empire never seems to have had much better than nominal authority over the provinces, and much of the narrative of Morrowind had to do with colonialism and its discontents. The concept of a republic seemed conspicuous by its absence.

The plot of Oblivion brought out why the Empire has the form it does. Mundus is tied together with a knot, with the spiritual heir of Alessia, bearing the Amulet of Kings, enthroned in White-Gold Tower, at the center of Cryodiil, of Tamriel, and of the world. Still, with the end of the Septim line, and it's rather dramatic conclusion to the Covenant, one could have imagined the Elder Council retaining power, and becoming some sort of senate -- a small loop at the center of the knot, as it were. So, I was a bit surprised by the Mede Dynasty.

However, the concept of a Hero is quite closely tied to the concept of monarchy, or at least to aristocracy. In this world, some people literally have special powers and favors from the gods. Even if Talos marked out a path that anybody can follow, clearly not everybody can follow it, judging by number of dead bodies of enemies and even allies one must pile up to reach heaven by violence.

I'm not disagreeing, but Bethesda is on record saying it may consider rebooting the Elder Scrolls series and my suggestion would be a rather effective way to reboot the Elder Scrolls series.

This. I'd even say that the Thalmor ending the Kalpa would be the worst plausible way they could reboot the series. Besides, I think I was told once that Skyrim was the reboot, as it took place 200 years after Oblivion.

Ugh. I hope not. I've seen a couple of RPG settings "rebooted", and it's usually a disaster.

RPG settings usually start out over-rationalized; if they're further developed by writers who have a sense of how history works, the setting tends to get more complex, but in a way that makes it easier to invent stories, not harder. I believe that's the case with the Elder Scrolls. History never happens on a blank canvas, and since a staple of fantasy RPGs is exploring ancient ruins, you need a history to explain those ruins. Given a rich history, you can pick a blank spot on the map -- and even in the most detailed setting, there are many blank spots on the map -- look at the nearest detailed areas, and think how they would have influenced that spot. "Reboot" the setting, and you lose what makes a mature setting attractive -- all the content on which you can build.

There is indeed a definite link between Talos and Lorkhan...this link is not in the basic nature of what the entities are, The link is in their state of being. Let me explain


Et Ada are original spirits. Daedra or Aedra, some are planets, others are not. At the creation of Mundus (which involved heavy sacrifices) some of these spirits took on lesser forms to continue to stay within creation while others like Magnus fled back to Atherius


Man was created by these Et Ada when Mundus was created. So when I say basic nature, I mean Man is not an Aedra or Daedra

Sheogorath confirms this in SI when the CoC asks him "Am I going to become a daedric prince?" and he replies "No, but you will have my power"




When I say they are linked in their state of being, I refer to the ability mortals were given at their creation to transcend the boundaries placed upon them by immortal rulers This is the great equalizer...man can ascend to godhood.


In the case of Talos he did this by Mantling Lorkhan. That is the link between Talos and Lorkhan


Remember Mantling does not mean you are an incarnation of a deity (people make this mistake a lot) Mantling means you are your own person, but you walked like another to become a deity in your own right

An important distinction I guess, but hasn't every hero in TES "walked like" most of the Aedra and Daedra. It seems to be a choice made more by the deity itself.
And in the case of Sheogorath, 200 years later the CoC has let the Prince's aspect completely take over him.

Honestly, I think that Talos and Lorkhan's relationship goes much deeper than simple mantling, though at this point I'm not sure how.

That's debatable. The ascension of Talos was not a basic mantling, it had many aspects to it. The fact that he was mantling a god who'd been seperated from his divine center may have been the reason he was able to retain some divine individuality. We cant make such absolute statements with the little knowledge we have.

Mantling is not the same as incarnation period. No matter how you want to slice or dice it.

Talos was dragonborn an individual gifted with the soul of a dragon by Akatosh. He mantled Lorkhan to become divine.


Wulfharth on the other hand was an incarnation of Lorkhan. A totally different principle which is clearly seen in the way his multiple lives played out. (Heck this guy was reassembled from ashes after red mountain.)


TES lore can be a trap if you do not watch it..

I never meant to say that incarnation = Mantling. They're outright stated to be seperate things.

Honestly the most interesting thing coming out of Skyrim with respect to Lorkhan is this:

Masser and Secunda disappeared for two full years


What is Lorkhan up to?

That's like seeing an exhumed grave and wondering what the corpse is up to.

If Alduin, Aka, Akatosh, Auriel, and Anuiel are all different gods yet are the same god, there's no reason why Talos cannot be an aspect of Shezzarr/Lorkhan. Also, I don't see any real reason why a Shezzarrine cannot be dragonborn (just because the dragon's soul is a gift from Aka, I don't see why Talos or the PC in Skyrim cannot be a Shezzarrine). I think the Dragonborn PC in Skyrim is a Shezzarrine, if only because so many parallels are drawn between him/her and Talos himself. Not to mention the Dragonborn saves Skyrim (and all of mundus) from the dragons.

That, and it's Shezarr/Shor's MO to come down in mortal form to save the world or fight on behalf of man in their greatest hour of need.