So one of the major plot points in Skyrim is the question of Talos' divinity, a story option that has both annoyed and confused me. Obliviously, as his shrines still grant the Dovahkiin a blessing, he is still a divine power, however he is the only one of the nine divines that ascended to the position, and he is the only one that can not manifest as a god-like being on Mundus, instead becoming Tiber Septim. I have long wondered if Talos is an Aedra or some other manifest, like the Tribunal.

Talos is most often described as either the "God-King of Man" or "Hero-God of Tamriel" by the people of Skyrim. As Tiber Septim he was also called Ysmir, a title the Greybeards bestow upon the Dovahkiin. Speaking to priests of Talos, they seem to use the titles interchangeably when referring to the Hero-God.

Now according to the lore, Ysmir is a hero-messiah sort of deal, sent when the [censored] hits the proverbial fan. This is described occasionally as the reincarnation of Ysmir.

Lastly, as was with Tiber Septim, the Dovahkiin has the soul of a dragon....

Is this the same soul?
Is Talos' connection to the Bones of Mundus through man and mer?

If this is so, could the Champion, Nerevarine, and the Dovahkiin be reincarnations of the Hero-God sent to prevent any further deception from Lorkahn?

Talos is an Aedra. Lorkhan.

I think it's a group effort. We're one half of Talos Stormcrown (the divine half) and Ulfric Stormcloak or Tullius (depending on the outcome of the civil war most likely) are the other half.

The fact that we've got a red dragon as an ally (Odahviing) just like Tiber Septim did (Nafaalilargus), and the whole thing with that one ghost mistaking us for Hjalti, seems like an indication that there's some kind of mantelling going on.

Unfortunately for us, the knowledge held in the Elder Scrolls would melt our collective brains to soup.
If only I could read it...

But yeah, it seemed as if there were way to many similarities between Talos and the Dovahkiin to be coincidental.

And when did Tiber Septim or any of his possible incarnations have access to the Heart of Lorkhan? Or is he another incarnation of Shor himself?
The latter would make some amount of sense considering how much the Nords revere the deceiver.

So Tullius/Stormcloak is the Wulfharth to our Tiber Septim? Who is the Zurin Arctus? Isn't there a trinity with those three representing Magnus, Akatosh and Lorkhan?
Yeah, he is an incarnation of Shor.

I am Talos you are Talos as you are Talos and we are all the Godhead.

I feel like bringing up that is cheating really.

I started thinking about this deeply (as deeply as one can ponder game lore) when I received Keening. According to Morrowind, without the Wraithguard, a mortal using the profane tools would have their life-force ripped from them. I don't know how the mage you get it for manages to use it either, but it made me wonder how I could use it without at least mantling the powers of Shor.


I kinda feel like this is whats happening here....


I have felt playing TES games is just rehashing of that first eternal, divine struggle.

There should be a third, but I don't have the foggiest idea who it would be. Maybe Paarthunax, or some Thalmor mage like Ancano?

Perhaps Alduin is the third. Akatosh is the time-god, and time has a beginning and end, and the game implies Alduin is a servant/incarnation/herald of the Dragon God.
Alduin's mortality is played up quite a bit, even though you have to drag him to Sovenguard to slay him.

It is more than likely that the PC is a incarnation of Shor/Lorkhan, which Tiber Septim mantled to become a God, he became Talos and joined the Eight devines to become the Ninth, the warrior god of man.
Now Talos worship is now banned by the Empire/Aldmeri dominion with the White-Gold Concordat treaty.
Enter the last DragonBorn, donned the title of Ysmir by the Greybeards, and ither helps Tullius/Ulfric put an end to the Skyrim cival war.
The path the PC follows has similarities to Tiber, like the above posters have put:
Tullius/Stormcloak is the Wulfharth to our Tiber Septim, is this all coincidence? who can say.

The Nerevarine is a reincarnation of Lord Indoril Nerevar and not Incarnation of Lorkhan.
The Champion of Cyrodil? was a Shezzarine, He mantled Pelinal and also Became Sheogorath.

Now concerning Keening, my theory is with the enchantments on the Heart of Lorkhan destroyed and its disappearance at the end of Morrowind, the tools where also affected along with the heart, and there power diminished over the course of time.
This is the reason why you do not receive a "mortal wound", as you would have done in Morrowind without wearing WraithGuard.

Perhaps he was incarnated as the opposite to the Shezzarine, sent to remove beings that might stand in the way of Azura's and the Aedra's goal of destroying Mundus?


Has it been confirmed that Pelinal was, in fact, a Shezzarine? It seemed like the here-say of a crazy knight.

The Nerevarine was incarnated by Azura, for in my opinion, little more than petty vengence on the Tribunal, she achieved it with the enchantments on the heart destroyed and the deaths of Sotha Sil, Almalexia and Vivecs loss of Divinity.

As for Pelinal being a Shezzarine, there aren't much in the way of hard facts, and only a handful of definitive sources. But if you want the flavor and atmosphere behind Pelinal:

http://imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-song-pelinal
http://imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-adabal
http://imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-knights-nine
http://imperial-library.info/content/oblivion-shezarr-and-divines
http://imperial-library.info/content/lament-pelinal

Reading up on the Alessian period and pieces on the Monomyth, to look into Pelinal's mythic history and origins of sorts, should also be helpful.

NEW INFO!
Will read now...

Well, thank you for the good read. Defiantly "flavor" of the character and few conjectures.

With all of this underlying mantling and what-not you'd think they would have made it more clear whether you have a deeper connection to Talos or Shor...

Or perhaps we're the new Underking.

Underking anologue would probably Tullius, Stormcloak or some other dude depending on whether he is Wulfharth or Arctus.

But the Underking wasn't the one ruling directly was he? I figured he was just Tiber's little helper. Which kinda relates the Dovahkiin to Tullius/Ulfric.

If we are going ahead with this theory that we're mantling Shor/Talos, then I'd suggest that its either (if it even needs to be a trinity) Us(Dovakiin), Tulius/Ulfric and a character we come into contact with in an upcoming DLC, or it is Us(Dovakiin) Tulius AND Ulfric.

Edit: And if this is what is happening, it certainly wont be us that will be the face of this, perhaps new divine/aspect of Shor/Talos.

I just thought of something...

What if we are a part of Talos/Akatosh/whoever, and we are in fact only delaying the end of the world. What if it is set up for the Dragonborn (who is told in several unrelated quests that he/she has a thirst for power, conquest, ambition, etc.) and his pet dragon (Odahviing) to reforge the Empire and in a collosal war, the world is ended and so ends the most recent kalpa. This gets around that annoying issue of how to make the Dragonborn the Emperor when the Dragonborn can be one of ten playable races. It would also give Bethesda a brilliant and acceptable way to reboot the Elder Scroll series and lore, since a new kalpa will begin, and the world would of course be different. No one knows what race the Dragonborn was because anything that happened after this game/kalpa would be wiped from the records so to speak, and Bethesda is free to reboot the series in a continual manner.

Pelinal was the embodiment of the dual mirror of Shezarr and Akatosh. Him fighting on behalf of man against the mer was his Shezarr side, while his insane periods was when he crossed into Akatosh territory. Also, there's also that he lacked a heart (huge, [censored] huge Lorkhan/Shezarr/Shor symbolism right there).
This quote paints him as both Lorkhan and Akatosh, and even cries out to Aka during this part, among other things.

Are we Talos? Or are we dancer?

Nah, really though, I don't think the dovahkiin is. Certain things (the ghost at old hroldan, the loyalty of a red dragon, dragonborn learning from the greybeards, etc) suggest a link, but my impression of the speculation in this thread is that it's just people trying way to hard to make the PC of Skyrim fit the mold of the enantiomorph.

Regarding Pelinal, does anyone else get chills when reading Pelinal's answer to Garid of the men-of-ge? Those songs are brilliant. They paint Pelinal's figure so vividly and powerfully.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean something like http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Wulf?




Surprise! The third party is Jarl Balgruuf. He justs wants to be left alone and dislikes the idea of his city being absorbed by either side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Lorkhan was a Daedra.

I'm still uncertain about the whole business with Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, Tiber Septim, and the Mantella, but I gather that understanding that is considered key to understanding the nature of Talos. And the general assumption has been, Wulfharth was a Shezarrine, and possibly all three were Shezarrines. Which, by itself, suggests an issue.

That is, I think it's a mistake to assume that an incarnation of a god has the same identity as the god; the connection seems to be more subtle than that. Even if Talos was originally a Shezarrine, or some sort of merging of more than one Shezarrine, Talos is not simply the same entity as Lorkhan; nor is he some lesser version of Lorkhan who has the same personality.

I do not think we can blithely assume that Lorkhan is a benevolent deity, or even that Lorkhan has a consistent purpose over time. Adventurous Willie has a theory that Lorkhan's battle to recover his heart from Red Mountain was a sermon on love. Haute Quêteure posited in a thread recently that it was Lorkhan who tore his own heart from his chest, in a fit of madness. I think that latter theory makes sense, and what Lorkhan's efforts at Red Mountain shows is that he cannot commit to a purpose. Pelinal Whitestrake, a Shezarrine, has something of this aspect of Lorkhan: Pelinal was a champion of oppressed humanity, a psychotic killer, and a terrifying monster who would unmake parts of the world.

Whatever else Talos is, I think he just is enough of Lorkhan to be able to occupy Lorkhan's throne, preventing Lorkhan himself from ever reclaiming it; but Talos himself emulates the Aedra, and acts as something of an Earthbone, empowering the Empire and stabilizing Nirn enough for the survival of the fragile concept of progress.

That sir, is pure win. Pay my respects to grace and virtue.

See, didn't I tell you you were awesome a few threads ago.