Isran is a jerk.

They still allow it to happen and I bet they are involved in it too.

No serious, the VIGILANTS think this guy's methods are to extreme.

So... that the keep have torture devices that are never seen or referenced being use the torture people? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't hold them above torturing vampires and the like, but I would like some actuall proof of the deed. The Dawnguard have just been reformed so I doubt they have had time to much of those things to be honest, unless evidence otherrwise shows up I think we can assume the devices are leftovers from the keeps former occupants.

Isran puts serana in it before you arrive....He dosen;t do anything, but who knows what he would have done if you weren't there.

As I understood it the Vigilants laughed at him for talking about always being prepared for something like the vampire threat that have risen, but I might have missed something here. IIRC he left because the Vigilant had become to complacent.

Not in my run of it he didn't. He simply kept her in a seperate quarter until I arrived. Any evidence for it?

If you really think about it.

Vampirism to the general Skyrim population is uncureable..well actually to the whole Elder scrolls world (i mean you had in Morrowind to go to Molag bal himself to get cured..not very smart), only the player character ever really gets to cure it or is forced to do hard quests to get cures for other people (Oblivion the count's wife)

So saying Vampires have a valid option to get cured isn't really true since most don't even know it exists.

Just something I noticed that people are saying when in truth its one of the hardest things to do.

BLoodied tortured devices is proof enough it it used. You think they paint the ground with red ink and paint the skulls on the shelves for fun? Why don't you visit Isran's chamber in the Prophet quest? The blood, the torture bed, the tools, and bloody skulls lining his shelf. What other proof do you need than vampire dust?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otxGOra4y9c

Around 1 minute.

No Celeen tells you that the vigilantes disagreed with Irans methods, and after awhile Celan left Isran because he also disagreed with his methods.

Ah, I must have missed that part of it. It is still not conclusive evidence, but it gives more credibility to the claim. Not that I am surprised that vampire hunters torture vampires(I would assume for information, Isan seem to be a practical sort of man if nothing else and seem to be more interested in killing vampires than torturing them for fun. That is just how I precieve him though), and seeing as the vampires enthrall people and have cattle I don't see the Dawnguard as evil.

It reduces the chance of Vampires killing people if they take cattle (who generally are beggars), if they didn't take Cattle then they would eventually get attacked by a Hunter and eventually starve from not feeding and then would kill the people they intended to make cattle from the insanity causing starvation.

In other words..

Vampires having cattle reduces the chance of them killing innocents and the cattle humans tend to be beggars no one cares for and won't notice if they disappear.

Vampires are smart.

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/How_b3a304_722933.jpg
I know, a bit late.

We wipe out parasites and bacteria because they cause disease and death.

Same thing.

Antibiotics =/= evil

So, she stands in the room with such devices, no reference to they being used on her at all and the only thing we get to know is that she showed up and asked to see you? Very compelling evidence that Serana was tortured. Sorry, I don't see her being tortured happening if that is all the even remotely imply it.
Must have forgot that, or missed it entirely. My mistake.

You are totally right. Ever watched Blade Trinity? That is what some of the vampires and purebloods did. They pulled beggars off the streets because no one really cared about them and they were miserable. They became cattle and were left in a catatonic state. Same for the vampires in Skyrim who purposly set up a skooma den for drug dealers and skooma-addicts and also because of the fountain. But low-lives, deadbeats and dirty members of society who otherwise are not missed are kept for food. I doubt any "real" vampires would care about the morality of their natural thirst for blood, but to be practical and intelligent, they feed off people who will not draw attention if they are missed or found dead.

Sybille Stentor and the Pale Lady love to feed on prisoners and criminals. Some vampires like skooma svckers.

Did I ever say Serana was tortured? No. Point is, they are vampires hunters and they have torture devices. Why would they have that? For decoration? It would not make sense at all. Silver Hand have the same thing and they are more obvious in their evil against werewolves.

That the vampires capture people and use them as cattle doesn't make them less malevolouent even if it reduces the attacks on random civilians. It is simply their safest way of staying alive, but they still enslave people for the simple purpose to serve as food.

It was so disgusting that I mistaken Harkon for a follower of Namiria.

And as I said: I don't put it above them to torture vampires for information, though I see it as unlikely that they would keep vampires around to torture for no reason.

So you are accepting the fact that they torture vampires for information? I suppose that is not malevolent right? In any case, everything is malevolent.

Lions favor the weakest animal in the group of prey, either the young or the sick, to devour and feast upon. I guess they are malevolent too, right? Especially those two lions known as the Tsvao maneaters notoriously known for taking many lives(possibly over a hundred) just for the hell of it. In any case, vampires naturally kill people to satisfy their thirst and hunger for blood. Valerica herself sees the Dawnguard as the bad guys. And the Dawnguard see vampires as evil. In the end, it is all a point of view. And from my point of view, the Dawnguard are evil(No, I am not lost).

The dawnguards main goal is not for the pleasure of torturing Vampires but to protect innocent lives, how is that evil?

They. Still. Torture. Vampires.

I find it hilarious that people condemn torturing as an evil act, yet when it is done on a creature that needs blood to survive, it is fine and dandy. In any case, I still think the Dawnguard are evil in my point of view. Vampires just do what nature has them to do. Kill, feed and survive.

I accept that they are most likely doing it, and I accept from a vampire point of view their are a malevolent group. However, looking at the greater picture I see the Dawnguard as being in the right and at least their goal is to protect innocents and/or avenge people killed by vampires. The dawnguard are not Paragons of Virtue, but they sure aren't the bad guys in this situation, Lord Harkon is.
As for Valerica thinking the Dawnguard being the bad guys: What do you expect? She is a vampire and therefor a possible victim of their cause. Serana is probably only alive on favor of the player and by playing an important role in stopping the prophecy. The Dawnguard are extremely anti-vampire since they(at leasst I assume they do) see every vampire as a potential threat.

The.Vampires.Still.feast.On.innocent."cattle''while.there.awake.and.are.aware.
I find it Hilarius that you agree with the Vampires "cattle" system, feeding to survive is one thing, but causing unnecessary pain is another, they could at least put them to sleep.