So I've been thinking about perks, and I'm starting to lean more and more heavily towards not liking them. Not individual perks, but actually the whole system.

You see, The Elder Scrolls has generally been about emergent player choices, at least since Morrowind. Many players will start out playing as some sort of role (say, stealthy bow user), only to find that they prefer something else later (say, finding out they do better with a one-hander and shield and restoration magic). This would generally be fine, even with the odd way in which games like Oblivion leveled, but not anymore in Skyrim, because Skyrim functionally ties your powers to your perks.

Perks are generally far more powerful than getting skill levels in this game. In fact, skill levels almost seem to exist only to give us access to more perks, where the perks so overshadow what little benefit the skills themselves give that they hardly matter.

Now then, yes, this does force a player to choose whether they want to have one playstyle or another rather effectively, but at the same time, I have to ask if this is what we really even want? After all, this would mean that a player could train their one-handed skill up to a high level, then, work on two-handed weapons, and wield those for a far longer time, and bring that two-hander up to maximum skill level. However, because the player was only using the two-hander to gain skill ranks for levels, and put all his/her perks into one-handers, and the one-handers which you spent less time training would be more powerful than the two-handers.

What if the player decided he/she liked two-handers better? Without a perk reallocation, you're basically just stuck. You either stick with one-handers, or you have wasted a large number of perks, and are never going to get that power that would make other skills far more useful back.

Then there are the pre-requisite perks that make little sense and force players to buy things they don't want or need to get to the things they do want. Yes, sure, some perks are very powerful, but if I don't want to play a necromancer because of RP reasons, why do I have to take necromancy and dark souls to get my double atronach summon? Why do I need to take a perk that increases the potency of poison in order to get the perk which lets me gather more herbs? What do those two perks have to do with one another?

Wasn't the whole point of this system from the start that training and use = power? Doesn't this contradict the entire basis upon which the skill system that makes this game unique was built upon? This is an unholy matrimony of experience-point-based leveling with character points that I spend to min-max my character with the natural use and skill level system.

There are even solutions that involve keeping perks in general, but removing them from character level, and tying them, instead to skill level - so that, like with Oblivion, you could hit rank 50 in a skill, but then have a choice as to what skill you want to gain when you hit that skill rank milestone. Then, you can choose specializations still, but have it remain tied to your skill ranks, not your character level. Even more, you could require training to learn those perks, allowing for more immersion.

I guess the only alternative would be they unlock automatically as you hit skill level milestones, Either way you get the same perks.

can i say the poll itself speaks volume's about the posters view , hehe . 4 negative answers and one positive . Totally fair and unbiased mmmmm

Are you really gonna suddenly change your mind after playing for hours and hours?

You just have to plan things out and spend your points wisely. Definitely requires you to think things through ahead of time and your decisions have more of an impact.

For this I am fond of the perk system.

There are definitely going to be mods for resetting perk selections.
And I'm personally a fan of the perk system. The old skill system gave the most boring bonuses for hitting each milestone.

Yes, basically, the Oblivion method.

However, many of the perks are +x% to certain things. For example, in order to get to the highest perk in Enchantment, you need to go through a slew of perks that all give you +25% to some specific type of enchantment, meaning you'd have to get all those things, anyway, if you were going for that double-enchantment perk, whether you wanted them or not, and also that you wouldn't need to have a "milestone"... just make it so that you gain those +whatever% bonuses each skill level.

In other words, instead of having perks that make your illusion spells simply become cheaper as you level up, they start increasing the level of the enemy they can affect as your skill level goes up, and restoration magic goes up in power with skill level, and destruction magic power goes up with skill level.

Only the perks that actually unlock something actually new, like a power attack, would need to be based upon milestones, the plus-whatever-percent stuff can just be layered across your skill ranks.

I think if they made the perks have a level requirement before you were able to get them then that would make it a bit better. Like instead of having a perk tree like they do for every skill just give us a list of perks with both skill and level requirements ( not so strict as to make it pointless but just enough so that the powerful perks require some work to to) that would make more sense. Just my two septims.

If "I generally like perks, but feel that many perks add little to my enjoyment of the game" is considered "negative", then you are considering anything other than "perfect" to be negative. It is pointless to put multiple "everything is perfect" questions in a poll just to have some sort of absurd numerical parity based on your subjective opinion of what qualifies as negative.

Rather, this was meant to display a gradient. If you cannot see why someone would do that, your rose-tinted glasses about this game are on far too tight.

There are some issues with certain trees and some minor gripes here and there, but the perk system is one of the best additions to the TES series.

Some perk could unlock based on skill and while most of the rest would have to be bougth with perk point. Maybe have some perk needing specific training session, quest, ect.
Not all eggs in the same place.

Actually, this was one of those big things I, and many others, didn't like about the vanilla Oblivion leveling system.

You had to plan out what skills you would level in advance so that you could get maximum stat bonuses. This meant that I would have to break off from dungeon-delving in order to spend boring nights in the basemant of the mage's or fighter's guilds, practicing bunny-hopping or casting restoration spells or boxing with a summoned creature in order to level the right skills for the right stats.

Without it, I would have had more freedom to simply let my playstyle be, and I could just enjoy the game, rather than fretting over the mechanics of the system.

In this, we're going back to needing to arbitrarily schedule our levelups so that we can get all the perks we want. There are already "perk planners" out there for you to schedule how you will level up your character from the start of the game.

I would argue that the game's skill system far better fits a way in which you do not have to stop to plan out how you are going to spend your next levelup character points, or have your perk points sit unspent because you know you need to level up such-and-such a skill you don't use too much just to get the perk you want from that skill, but where the skill is not yet a high enough level yet.

I had to vote the top choice, since it's the only one that isn't biased and negative. There's a HUGE gap between "change nothing!" and "lots of perks add little enjoyment"

Meh I like the perks. It gives me a sense of achievment when I get to pick what to upgrade next. In Oblivion and Morrowind I could eventually max out 100 on everything and receive all the benefits of the skills making it boring and unbalanced.

This game makes me feel more like a warrior who has battled long and hard with his chosen weapons, learning it's functions and eventually mastering them. Not only does it give a sense of growth but also ownership of your character. My warrior class can vary very differently from other peoples by the perks I have chosen. I might be able to fend off your blows with my board, disarm you with a bash then cleave your head clean off with my axe. My friends warrior on the other hand might be able to charge in to battle soaking up damage and dismember you with dual swords before you can blink. If we could both eventually do everything then there would be no stories to tell or cool stuff to show your buddy.

The choices really adds to the roleplay experience. If I want to switch roles then I can by loading up a new character and have a totally fun, different and fresh game experience all over again I certainly should not be able to do everything though.

Yes, actually, I think this could be a very good alternative.

Looking for trainers or doing special trainer quests to gain specific top-tier perks once you hit near-maximum skill levels would also add achievement to the way in which you gain perks.

You could also give players choices of one-or-the-other perks at certain skill milestones, or choices of which perks to gain at the special perk training sessions, so that there is still choice, but where the total number of perks you get has to be in balance with the amount of training you have actually done on that particular skill.

This would still have selectable perks and customizable skills, but prevent players from just grinding up one skill for levels and having all the perks in one skill, but nothing in another because of your min-max strategy.

I think the new perk system adds a ton of balance to character development and keeps one from becoming too powerful early on in their life. It also rewards focusing on skills just like in real life and like the classic overhaul mod OSCURO'S OBLIVION OVERHAUL does for OBLIVION.

For me it really fleshes out my character build.

I love the perk system, I just wish some of the perks weren't broken.

OK, whatever, I changed the second question's wording.



I actually feel the exact opposite, is the problem.

I feel that the perk-point attribution actually makes it feel less like I'm getting a reward for my perseverance at one type of skill, and instead am just being handed out upgrades at arbitrary points. This is why I prefer gradual gains over time to giant lump-sum upgrades, as well. There is also the problem that many of the perk trees just don't allow for very much customization, simply because they put the obviously good skills on the end of trees where almost every single other perk is a pre-requisite. Again, I don't want to ever cast necromancy with my character for RP purposes, but if I want the dual-summoning perk, I have to take the necromancy perks. That's the perk system stepping into my ability to feel attachment to my character.

With that said, I can certainly see why you would want to have a this-or-that choice, but think that it could be based upon character skill level, potentially with trainers and events or quests, rather than choosing between which skills are the chosen skills while neglecting others.

Judging from the poll results, it looks as if Bethesda has another winner on its hands!

I'm in the minority, though, and preferred the way the Elder Scrolls saga worked in the past.

I think the thing that irritates me about the perks the most is that many are game mechanics that should be standard for everyone in the game already on level one.

Like a shield blocking arrows. Any "milk drinking" farmer with no training can do that.

Does fatigue even have any effect on the perks?

Perks should have been unique advantages that only a few people would ever be gifted with such as the "time slow down effect" that mimics "the zone" that only some athletes have attained. Even at the 30 year peek of my skills in RL marital arts I only found my way into "the zone" (were it seem like everyone was moving a little slower than I was) twice in my life.

If the perks had been like that (unique advantages) I think I would like the system, as it is now I do not.

Looking at the poll resul, I'd say less than half really enjoy it with no complaint. Got some patching to do beth.
Would mod it at the speed of light if the creation kit is good.

I just wish you could choose more...I guess if you make a pure character, or a character that is mostly pure with a few other skills, you have more than enough. But my first guy uses everything since I want to get a feel of the game. Definitely isn't enough perks for that, but oh well. I really like this system, makes me feel like I accomplished something. Oblivion didn't give me that feeling and leveling my stats took too much planning, I usually forgot which skills from which attributes that I leveled up, and every enemy eventually got way to powerful for me so I just quit the game.

Of course, since the perks are part of a graphical interface, I have to wonder how much modders will be able to bypass such things or reformat the way the trees progress...

I get really upset when I see some of these suggestions that what destruction needs is just another +25% damage perk.

Do people really like getting all their power from a single, one-time, lump-sum power upgrade, rather than accruing it over time, or gaining it from relation to their skill ranks?