Are they? When the PC becomes a vampire, does s/he become undead as well?

In DF, it made it so that you did die, or make it looked like you died. Since Morrowind and Oblivion, you are not dead. Also, vampirism is a disease created by either Molag Bal, Vaernima or both, though most myths say it came from when Molag Bal [censored] a (insert country's race) lady, and dropped some blood on her, back in some early era. It was also done to create a mockery of Arkay.

You're not dead initially, but there are vampires who lived past the average life span, and would likely die if cured. (Dark Brotherhood vampire in Oblivion, and Countess Skingrad for example.)

Every source in game says that they are undead, yet a lot of players does not consider them undead, I don't know why?

Mostly because vampirism is caused by a transmittable disease (Porphyic Hemophillia), and can be cured.

I think that when speaking in terms of Lore you are undead, but in terms of the game your not (Because there′s no special effect that makes you undead or anything like that... and people don't seem to think of you as undead when you speak to them).

Do you know something about Janus Hassildor that I don't?

That he has a wife, and she's part of the vampire cure quest.

As to vampires being undead, it's never really been stated conclusively one way or the other, but Daggerfall vampirism seemed to suggest they were.

This doesn't contradict the idea of vampires as undead: disease can kill you (make you undead) and death can be "cured", you can be brought back to life (in fantasy) .

Well... Since Porphyric Hermophilia makes you a vampire first after 3 days and then when you sleep that COULD mean that you die. While you sleep. Then re-awakens as a vampy... Perhaps.

why would they die if they were cured?

Arkay probably flips out and smacks 'em down for living so long.

Or it could be due to old age and the fact that their vampirism is the only thing keeping them alive.

Although I think that in the Countess' case it was due to her weakness after not feeding for such a long time (could be wrong; only did that quest once).

That was the suggestion in Daggerfall. Once you'd become a vampire, you reawoke at the nearest graveyard, and all of your positions within the guilds and temples were erased. You were assumed dead by the populace, and all your legal reputation and rankings with the guilds were wiped.

I really love how it worked in Daggerfall.

That's also how I see it in the other ES games. You die in your sleep and awaken as a vampire.

Or you never die in the first place, you enter into a state similar to hibernation with an almost unrecognizable pulse and enter metamorphosis afterward. If your vitals drop far enough, you could be mistaken as dead. The locals wouldn't know the difference. The subject actually dieing needlessly complicates matters, and the fact that the subject can actually be cured by a specially prepared potion implies that vampirism does not actually kill the victim. If it did, The cure would have to simultaneously reverse the vampiric effect and resurrect them, and we have no reason to believe this is what is happening.



or the disease simply slowed your breathing and made your pulse hard to recognize. The locals wouldn't know the difference.

If you were undead, I'd suspect your heart wouldn't be beating anymore. Which means no bloodflow. No bloodflow means no stomach working, no stomach working means no digestion of potions. No digestion of potions means no cure or digesting blood. It could easily get into the blood system by diffusion, but actually making it go around the body would be nearly impossible. Dead bodies don't even bleed unless there are certain circumstances.


Happened in real life to people sometimes, way back when.

People would see them walking around (if they managed to dig themselves up) and call them a witch, or a vampire, or some sort of a demon... the results were usually pretty bad, since the victims would also believe it.

The undead are creatures whose bodies have either died or gone to a state of complete near death in which the only thing sustaining them is the magic binding them or their own force of will. You can extend this to all types of undead, but essentially, the body begins to decompose while some semblance of the mind remains. That semblance is greater or lesser depending on the type, but something from the original mind is always sacrificed. The creature's body, as mentioned, rots away, leaving a walking decomposing corpse, walking skeleton, or roaming ghost behind, limited only by the force keeping them animated. There is nothing about that that anyone can do about it. Hence why liches don't try to rejuvenate themselves.

Vampires lose their humanity, no doubt about that, but I don't think they lose their minds. They can lose them if they enjoy blood-feeding too much/become starved about it. But, no more or less than a skooma addict. Even the mindless, 'insane' vampires still hunt their prey, and others don't seem to lose any of their higher cognition with the only qualifier being a stronger mind than the others. At the very least if they are undead, this then puts them on par with Liches in terms of mental acuity, which is quite impressive. But then there is the body. It does not decay or fail if the magic or force holding them in this state fails. Indeed, the vampire seems very much alive, just dependent on a different source of food than other mortals.

And yet, on the other hand, both Vampires and Undead are perversions of life, defying the sensibilities of both Meridia and Arkay, while Lycanthropy (a similar case study which fulfills much of the same distinctions as mentioned above) is only a preversion of natural life, defying the sensibilities of Kynarath.

I'm leaning towards a separation, like my peers, between Vampirism and Undeath.

I apologize if you can't follow this completely. I am quite tired right now and my mind is dying on me.

I think DarthRavanger hit the nail on the head. Bullseye.

Dont forget that there are numerous amounts of vampire clans/types and hats why some vampires look utterly hideous and others like they did when they where non-vampiric like a clan in northern skyrim lives below frozen lakes and can freeze victims with there breath while the main clan in cyrodill can look more like themselves the more often feed this book explains more http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Immortal_Blood. what im getting at is that in some clans you could actually die while in others you would not ,that could also explain why its so flipping hard to cure becausse each strain needs a diffrent cure

Still doesn't make sense for them to die. If the victims actually die, then the matters are needlessly overcomplicated. Besides, as Martut pointed out, the digestive tract would need to be functioning in order to process a potion, the blood would need to be pumping in order to spread the materials throughout the body. Also, it is a disease. Killing the host doesn't help the disease in any way, shape, or form. Killing the host risks death for the disease. It's more likely the victim simply has a drop in vitals, which causes the locals to think their dead, and then during the time when their vitals have dropped they undergo metamorphosis.

Also, as mehrunes pointed out, Vampires do not rot. They retain their higher cognitive functions. The fact that neither rotting nor loss of cognitive function is demonstrated shows a marked separation from the undead.

However, just to play Devil's advocate here, perhaps the imbibing of blood is symbolic of how the vampire takes the life-force of its victims in order to stay alive and as close as possible to humanity. After all, both Countess Hassildor and the Grey Prince's father managed to stay alive without blood for a very long time without dying. A lot longer than humans need food. Now, perhaps if this continued the Countess would've passed on due to hunger, but the fact remains that her body didn't cannibalize it's own life force to keep her alive perhaps because there was no life in it and she lingered on thanks to whatever magical powers kept her on.

Oh wait, we've got conclusive evidence here, Turn Undead doesn't work on Vampires.

It is possible that they can be deceived like that to think that they are dead, but unlike middle ages where people were sometimes buried alive TES is fantasy with powerful sorceress and all knowing gods* so it's unlikely that they won't be able to tell whether they are undead or not.
*ok, they are not actually all knowing, but they should know enough to tell if someone is dead or not.

To explain vampires as undead is perhaps more complicated than explaining them as a result of some disease, but who says that reaching immortality should be simple?


Dude, it's magical potion.

edit:


Gameplay. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-vampires-vvardenfell-volume-i imply otherwise. It say that the difference between ash vampires and normal vampires is that the ash vampires are not affected by "sorceries and blessings affecting the undead".

Do you really think that some random adventurer looking dead in his bed is going to get looked at by powerful mages and gods who don't bother with that kind of stuff? Especially if you enter hibernation in a town like Aleswell, where they don't have any mages? THey'll just dump your butt in a grave so you don't start rotting.


It's a potion.


There is nothing in that to indicate normal vampires are effected by "Sorceries and blessings affecting the undead."

And so, the belief in vampires spread. Unabated. And no one knew, that the myth of the vampire was created by a vampire, who wasn't a vampire at all, but a vampire.

Because all legends are born from air and dust and nonsense.

Of course not, but with the hundreds and thousand of adventures turned into vampires, there is a good chance that at least some of them were examined with person knowledgeable enough to tell the difference. Also random adventurers are not the only ones who can be turned into vampire, there is no doubt that nobles have access to such resources.

I admit that Vampires of Vvardenfell is not conclusive, but when book about vampires deals with creatures also called vampires and says that they are not the same and they are not affected by magic against undead it is logical to assume that normal vampires are affected by such magic (what other reason would the book have to mention it?). Anyway, the fact that turn undead doesn't work on vampires in game is not proof.

Potion you can get only from a deadric prince cannot be an ordinary potion.