I didn't quite catch what is it that grosses you out, porm, or female pubic hair. If it is female pubic hair, given you mentioned you are 22, I would venture to say you indeed have been influenced by what has been presented to you as a standard of beauty during your formative years, including female pubic hair. Does your pubic hair gross you out as well, or is it just female?

There is nothing wrong with pubic hair.
It's a shame so many women are duped into believing they need to shave or wax it all off.

May I ask which forum? Cause thats certainly not an attitude that I've come across much. Its something that I would expect to come out of the mouth of a 20something frat boy, not a man. I remember reading a poll about how women groom down there, and while some did go bald it was mostly a personal preference rather than a 'men don't sleep with me if i don't" thing. Outside of porm, most women I've seen naked had at least some hair down there. Hell, even textsfromlastnight.com, which can very well be seen as a compilation of the shallow frat college experience, constantly has chicks talking about how they don't shave and still get laid.


I'm assuming that, having just turned 20, I'm part of this generation. I've gotta say that I've encountered none of that. Bush = forever alone just makes me lol.

To sum up my position: women are held to standards different from men, ones that are more stringent than those towards men when it comes to beauty. However, I don't think its nearly as bad as some make it out to be, consider that the vast majority of females do not conform and do just fine.

Mine does too. I personally "groom", or "manscape", as I like to call it, simply because I don't like it.

Actually yes. Before shaving women's legs was introduced the 'norm' was unshaved and that is what men found attractive and I assure you that they would have found shaven legs very unattractive and if you were a man who prefered shaved legs you would have been considered wierd. Probably also a pervert to like legs of a woman as hairless as a child's. It is entirely about perception and when your perception is manipulated, in this case by media and peers, then your ideas and ideals change. That is a fact that can be traced easily over the past 100 and more years.

Before the 1920's the idea of a woman showing her ankles and god forid, knees, was possitively shocking to society. How was that mindset changed? Media portraying pictures of the latest fashion. The younger generation got caught up into this new 'cool' thing and if you disagreed then peer pressure would sort you out or you would be considered wierd and an outcast. Voila, a generation of flappers with the daring litle dresses. All ready to pass their beliefs over to the next generation..



You don't have to watch porm to become a part of the latest 'expectation' and trend. If you had never heard of women removing the hair from their crotches before, then your opinion would be different. This 'trend' has gone viral, supported by media, peers. However it is the truth that this originated when porm stars started doing it in order to make more viewable areas for the camera. Some expletive decided this was a good thing (probably worked for gillette) and wham suddenly magazines are advertising this or that product to remove the hair from your crotch, people are talking about it, it is portrayed in characters in film and television and ads. People who don't do it are mocked on television and wham the mindset is complete. A new generation of girls that believe that guys will laugh at them and think them unattractive if they don't remove the hair from their crotches and a generation of guys used to this and now considering the alternative repulsive. Refer to my very long last post for more on that.

So what has occurred is yet another 'expectation' for women and we move even further away from our natural bodies. All so companies can sell more cosmetics, clothes and other products. My personal opinion of removing the hair from your crotch is that I find it extremely repulsive and extremely unsixy. It looks like a child's crotch and that just sickens me. I can't think of anything more unattractive. Pubic hair is natural, a sign of advlthood and a mature woman and I draw the line at the latest trend for me personally.

This is so recent. Women shaving was prevalent only in western civilisation until the last ten or twenty years. There are still many countries that don't shave and you will find that their men have no complaint as it is the norm for them. Standards of beauty differ so much from country to country. For example in one or maybe more African countries, the fatter your wife is the more you are considered wealthy and the more fertile she is considered. Their standard of beauty is morbid obese women and they take young girls and force feed them to make them attractive and find a husband.

You may feel sick at the thought, but the men wouldn't consider it any other way and find our standard of beauty repulsive. They think the women look sickly and like little girls. It is all in the mind and perception and unfortunately it is taken to extremes in almost all cultures.

Real beauty is the natural bodies we have, in all shapes and sizes. At a healthy body weight and with so much variation. Why settle for one look and a load of clones when there is so much variety. It is really sick that we must so dramatically alter our natural bodies just to fit in with what media and therefore society holds up as the ideal woman....or man. That our bodies are not considered good enough as nature provided them.

I pubicly salute the hirsute !

I mean publicly. :blush2:

My best friend in life didn't even shave her underarms until she was over 35 or so. It never bothered me a bit. I never gave it a second thought or ever thought it was strange. Legs yes...she likes stockings.

Why would women even need to talk about how they don't shave...but can still get laid? If there was no issue there then there would not be the need to talk about it.

That is very much part of the problem and shows how this type of conditioning is spreading. You say that the vast majority of women do not conform? If you shave your legs or armpits you are conforming. I am not saying don't do it or we should start a revolution by not shaving. I am saying at least be aware of WHY and everyone around you is doing it and where this comes from.

I can't link the forum as the language is highly sixual. But that forum is just one example and others are around everywhere.

Not until recent years, in a comparative nature, was there any "prevalent" consideration in pleasing the woman either, something far easily done when shaved. They also didn't emphasize showering every day. Do we blame shampoo companies? My wife, an RN, shaves because 1) it's more hygienic and easier to wash and clean, and 2) in one specific case because it helps her get pleased. Don't recall if this was iterated or not, but there are more reasons than beauty of private parts, something I raise an eyebrow at in any circumstance, as Hollywood and society always glorify the young looking no matter which part of the body it may be -- face, legs, butt, briasts, whatever. I agreed with the notion that things aren't as equal as they should be, like for pay, something rather tangible and easily verifiable, but what's evident here is far too much emphasis is being put on victimization which looks like that's where today's feminism goes. I don't see any room for a solution, it's more like those who want to complain about how others live their lives, person ignoring their own freedom to do with their body what they like (but not control how others react).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP6XpLQM2Cs.

On the shaving topic. Don't mean to come off like an ass, but shaving is very important. Espescially since I'm still young. Clean shaven = attractive, to me, some guys they prefer not to, its whatever floats your boat. Sure.. call me shallow, or superficial, or whatever you want.. I'm young.. I'm tryin to have fun and enjoy myself.

If I were into guys I'd still want clean shaven.

:shrug:

Its whatever flaots your boat

I don't watch porm. I don't really see the appeal. :confused:

And drives me away again

No seriously, I am a walking cliche. Typical I can't pass by a thread like this.

But this is the problem. You have already dismissed what I said as 'feminism' and 'victimization'. I was stating facts, not looking for sympathy. But because I am a female laying down these facts I am already classed as a victimised feminist. This is a perfect example of why at the end of my first post I put a list...

I am not a feminist.

Drop the whole concept or idea of feminism or victimisation. This is about facts not labeling and stereotyping. .

Your wife may choose to do that but I can guarantee you that 10 - 20 years ago it would not even occur to her and would not have any effect on her six life either. I did it once and the itch of it growing back was far more uncomfortable then any pleasure, which I might add was not affected by it. Also the inconvenience and pain of doing it so often was by no means pleasurable. Not to be too specific but those specific areas that are associated with female pleasure are not hairy anyway and just require a 'parting of the ways'. The same goes for males. So whose pleasure exactly?

For some women it makes them feel sixier.....uh...who put that belief that it is sixier in there? And for the health thing...



Btw, Gillette is trying to encourage men to go the same way. They have a video on their site showing how. Maybe they just want us all to be clean and sixually happy....or.....I am thinking maybe they actually just want to sell us more products. Huge numbers of studies have been done on the effects of advertising on people. Couple that with the fact that the only reason we have advertising is because it works and it works incredibly well. The effect on how people think by advertising is massive. So yes, blame that shampoo.

I am not going to tell people what to do with their bodies, do what you want. The topic of this thread is about expectations on women and whether we think there are more. For me the answer is most definitely yes and that these expectations are communicated and enforced through media and peers.

For an interesting bit on advertising...



So my conclusion is that the extra expectations on women are created and 'enforced' by commercialism. Not by men, not by other women. Other then where peer pressure comes in, but ultimately that itself is the product of commercialism.

I agree with marketing prowess. The history of marketing is quite interesting which is more in detail with Naomi Klein's No Logo, if you ignore the "action" part of it and focus on historical.

OTOH, yes, this is victimization. You are blaming society and companies for essentially brainwashing women, and now men too, in contrast, completely ignoring the choices they make and the increased amount of freedom they have to make these choices, something women used to not have the freedom to decide, sadly. The very same debate occurs with feminism concerning briasts and implants. This all follows the feminist "patriarchal" debate except in your case instead of just blaming men it's blaming society and companies, who's influences are known, but are not limiting at all of the freedoms one has to do with their body what they please. You have satisfied the criteria of those two assertions.

Societies always have standards of what beauty is. I can't tell you when this wasn't the case.. has it ever existed? Hair is harder to wash over, it leaves a mess, and since we're worried so much about sixuality, it makes it easier on most women. Of course, for those who get so much irritation from it, maybe another method might work, who knows, that's their prerogative. Concerning expectations, for a more useful debate, we need to ask ourselves why women, or society at all, today, allow themselves to be influenced by the media. We all know most herd themselves around mindlessly per the usual "sheep" metaphor, but people make a conscious choice to allow themselves to believe things like there's a boogeyman around every corner, they're going to get blown up by terrorists, not having large briasts is abnormal, not having completely shaved private areas is abnormal, and so on. Hate to come off as unsympathetic but I am not opposed to those men and women alike who allow themselves to be shepherded around by the media or companies that sell products learning a harder lesson about the genius involved in washing away their own individuality/freedoms.

Feeling "sixier" shaving in most cases I would say is more like feeling "less dirty", which is a common side effect of frequent shaving, as mentioned, because of the increased amount of dirt, oils, and so on that accumulates around hair. This happens in both women and men, and is no fault that can be attributed to the media or a company's marketing department, despite the ease and convenience about blaming them might be.

Whatever works to keep you coming around! :celebration:

Fair enough.
"Manscape'... yep, millions of people like to call it that... it is a term that was coined by marketing firms.
Let me ask you, did you feel that way when you were 10-11 years old? Where you disgusted by the thought of growing body hair or did you think of body hair as a sign you were turning into a man?

This thread took a turn for the awesome. I shave down there because it feels nicer. Not because I saw some ad on TV with a guy shaving his junk... they don't have those ads. I shave my pits too. Just because hair is natural don't mean it's pretty and just because I say it's ugly doesn't mean I'm brainwashed.

Er.. what? Care to explain that one?
I don't see a physical reason to validate that statement.
I can see a psychological reason for it, but not physical.

Four words: face full of hair.

Nope. I stopped there for a reason, but I will iterate both physical and psychological.

Ya know I could turn the tables here and call you a male chauvenist, because you fit that stereotype. One of those oppressive men who think women are not entitled to have an opinion on their place in society and when they do, label them in a derogatory manner. I am an individual with individual opinions and thoughts and I am going to imagine that you are too. So at least have the curtesy to acknowledge that rather then hiding behind stereotypes. Pathetic stereotypes that people use when they just can't handle someone and are afraid.

Also I am not blaming anyone. I am not a victim. In context with the OP's question I am providing reasoning to back up my opinion. I do not go around in a perpetual anger, blaming here and there. I am however aware of the effect of media on people and unlike you I don't think it is alright. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.



Technically when it comes to a woman's crotch, you are not qualified to make such a statement. You are not a female. Become a female, shave your crotch and then come and tell me how it is. You can only speculate and go on what others say. Not to mention that what you are stating is just not true.

Just because something has always been done does not make it right, nor excuse it.



Again, I can assure you that having hair in the crotch does not feel or make people dirty. Don't be a sheep and mindlessly believe what you are told. I am sorry you see advertising as having no affect whatsoever over people, but I can assure you that numerous studies prove otherwise and once again refer you to what I said above, they wouldn't do it if it didn't work. It works by manipulating people's minds, that is a fact. I don't sit around in helpless blame and anger, I am simply aware of it like I said above.

Like it or not the media is responsible for higher expectations of women, whether women actually fall into that is individual, but there are most definitely consequences for not. If you had never seen TV or read a magazine your only information on the behaviour of men and women would be through your peers. You would have an entirely different expectation and opinion of both women and men. That is a fact.

Where did they say that women are not entitled to have an opinion?

In the place where it was said that just because I believe in equality and am a female, that I am a feminist.

Which has nothing to do with one's right to have an opinion. Labels != can't have an opinion. Don't strawman the guy.

Disagreement = "not entitled to have an opinion"? Indeed I guess I am a chauvenist.


In the case we talk about there are no victims. A victim is someone who has something done to them, especially something they didn't have a choice over. What a person shaves, what they do to their body, this is their choice. Influences about choices made are all around us, I just don't go around exaggerating the same ones you do.


Er, hair in general.. not pubic hair, although I do have a woman lying 5 feet from me to validate the statement, if not for personal experience. This is of the same logic that a male doctor or psychologist cannot help a woman or say anything to them because they aren't one. :facepalm:


Actually, it's quite common to feel dirty, especially under the criteria I gave which was shaving often, when one doesn't. This is not limited to men, or women, and this is not limited to the pubic region. Hair obstructs cleaning which is why it requires more of it provided it isn't a better idea to allow natural oils and hair for defense purposes. A guy not shaving his face also similarly makes something more difficult to enjoy as iterated by some previous posts here relative to a woman not shaving.

Interestingly very little media has been mentioned here, but you keep citing this, which to me means you have your own issues with the media and society that transcends the simple notion of their influence, making me believe that it's you who is far too influenced by them and by your personal objections wish to exaggerate the influences of it upon others to the point of what it sounds like that they are slaves to societal/media/corporate images of beauty.

That one went right over your head. I was refering to the rediculousness of labels at all, by labeling him in the same rediculous way he was labeling me.

Thirdeye, I am not going to bother arguing more with you. You have taken what I said and twisted it into something which it is not and never was intended to be. Then used that to make erroneous statements about me personally. I suggest we simply agree to completely disagree before this thread gets derailed more and locked.

I leave this argument as it is going nowhere, with my original point and belief in answer to the OP's question....

Yes, I do think that there are higher and many more expectations made of women and I believe that they are created and reinforced by media and peer pressure. That is why I think there are more expectations of women.