We can't agree to disagree. If you go back to page 2, I already agreed with you. Hilariously, I still do, at least, from back there.



OTOH, you're taking this view way too militant-like, partaking to the notion that those who shave are victims of Gilette and society which drew my ire. This has nothing to do with expectations, this is calling out a group of people and essentially telling them they are sheep who have no choice in the matter. I personally don't like that.

Indeed expectations are higher for women but they are also higher for men. Society discriminates. Always has, always will. It would be naive to try and eliminate this because it's impossible. Women get discriminated against for a different fashion, but the same aesthetic background applies. As long as their rights aren't being curbed, I don't see a reason to fuss too much about something that won't go away regardless of gender. I don't get the same opportunities as Denzel Washington or George Clooney, and perhaps they have given some silly women another set of expectations for men, but hey, that's life.

Fair enough

Perhaps we should all shave the hair off the tops of our heads, by golly in the summer time the sweat is gnarly.
Speaking of sweat, there are two types of sweat glands, acropine and eccrine. Eccrine gland sweat is the type that runs off your face, your chest, your back, and your legs while you are mowing the lawn. Acropine gland sweat is the sweat that comes from your ampits and crotch area, and that is the sweat that reeks to high heaven, because bacteria on the skin contaminate it.

As for shaving, the hubs keeps the hedge trimmed, and in specific places, as do I, but the hedge is still there.


One standard I can't discuss on this forum is that women's reproductive rights: The concept that men should be allowed to decide what goes on in a woman's uterus is inane.

*blows kiss*


Haha, you beat me to it. The hygiene argument always cracks me up... as if people don't wash every day anyway, which makes the argument moot*. Of course, shaving the hair from our heads would never be suggested - that would be ugly!

The shaving = hygiene argument is so transparent it makes me laugh.


*Or if you don't, you should. You filthy beast. For shame.

Only if I'm leaving my house.

Yes, even if I've just worked out....if I'm not going out I don't shower. Since I have to go out every morning I end up showering everyday....except in summer.

Ofcourse i want that women would have shaved private parts. I dont like getting hair in my mouth. :yuck: :nope: But its not life breaking thing..

That all depends; Do you want to be treated like a woman, like a man, or like a human?

It would on me, at least. I was born with lopsided, lumpy head.

It's more socially acceptable for a woman to physically hurt a man than it is for a man to physically hurt a woman, yet it's more socially acceptable for a man to be promiscuous than it is for a woman.

That's all I'm going to say.

Then I'm gonna open a male only gym and cite the same reasons. Would that be sixist?

Of course they are and in many, many ways.

No bit deal, most of us can meet that standard standing on our heads.

No, of course not. Privately-owned spaces can be determined in any way one wishes, and I would never deny men a safe space to exercise if they felt uncomfortable doing so in the presence of women. In fact, I would sympathise. I think you've slightly missed the point, though - there is a huge long history of threat and objectification that women feel with regards to putting their bodies on display like that, and there simply isn't a comparable history for men. That's why women only gyms exists in higher quantities.

No it's not, but fun to read.

I never asked for equality with women, cause we were born different and should be treated differently. If I have internal bleeding every month and hold responsibility of procreation through mental and physical labor, I do wish someone would help me out base on my gender.

Certainly objectification wouldn't happen to men at, of all places, a gym. :facepalm:

I wonder if these women-only gyms exist in Vegas where so many women move just to put themselves on display? I think that would be ironic.

Oh wait..

http://www.healthclubdirectory.com/health_club/clubResults/NV/Nevada/Las%20Vegas/WomenOnlySection

I can't really see this having anything to do with a higher standard though. In fact, a man going to a gym would be held to a higher standard than a woman. Can't think of how many doughnut jokes would follow a fat man, or how many nudges from woman-to-woman a man with a six-pack entering would get. I think I just stumbled on a thread to complain about things.

Initially I was willing to just say yeah women do have quite a bit more expectations of them looks-wise, but the more posts that I read, especially of the feminist variety, the more I realize it's closer to equal than I first thought, just for different reasons.

Exactly. I used to work for a women only gym and the reason it existed was that women feel more comfortable. I know I did, I was constantly harassed when I went to a regular gym. I was ogled and constantly hit on and all I wanted to do was work out but instead I felt very uncomfortable. Conversely, I didn't see any harassment of men by women. Objectification of men is just something that happens so rarely compared to objectification of women. Neither is a good thing.

Oh dear. Someone else can field this one. Meek, I nominate you.

I will say, though, that I kind of feel you missed my point about history and quantity. It was pretty much the only point in that post you quoted, so I'm not sure how that happened. I even explicitly said that I would sympathise with men being objectified. Did you quote my post by mistake?

Oh no, I read your post and understood it well, don't hide behind Meek.

Despite that "you would sympathize" with men, you said there wasn't any comparable history for men. I disagree, and more than that, I'm both baffled and skeptical as to how you could sympathize with something you don't believe exists in any comparable manner. :shrug:

I certainly see differences that occur between the two sixes that aren't fair. I've pointed them out, in fact. OTOH, I think the topic has been hijacked by exaggerations especially in contemporary times of what women go through, exaggerations of the difference between what men and women go through, and downplaying what men go through (so far ignoring that this occurs between men as well and not just opposite six encounters), all for the sake of pinning women in a very typical victim role prevalent in contemporary feminism that really is confusing in it's goals and intentions, and worse, annoying as hell in the methods used to try and portray in what I think is a perpetual message of things that, in reality, have vastly changed between the first wave of feminism and now.

I originally agreed with the topic's premise, but ironically citing the same examples of the different ways women and men are treated and how that can be a different standard, it also highlights the fact that a large number of these things are choices made by women to send a message that objectification is okay. Unfortunately some people are too dumb to appreciate someone's individuality and treat them as an equal regardless of their gender but really this happens to everyone, certainly in your gym scenario where a friend and I used to be gawked at by women, sometimes of the rather unsightly bunch. That's the way it goes, and I'm pretty sure most women and men are beneficiaries of objectifying others, especially when they comment on passer-by's, actors/actresses in a movie, virtually any relative scenario. I can think of several other things that are actual discriminatory acts done unfairly upon women like pay grade which are far more reasonable to argue than this.

Unfortunately I think this is a lost cause. Seems no matter what we say he will twist and read what he wants to read and contradict himself. It appears as though he is obsessed with the concept of feminism and his very rigid and false interpretation of it. Claiming that we are downplaying the expectations of men and their hardship. I think he sees feminism in general as attacking men and anything we say is contrued as such. This is the very skewed view of feminism we spoke about earlier, the very reason why I posted that I was not a feminist, in case someone with this sort ot opinion came along , and that is exactly what happened.

What he doesn't seem to comprehend is that by pointing out the higher and more numerous expectations on women, we are not doing it with the intent of attacking, belittling and blaming men and insinuating that men 'have it easy' . Personally I don't think anyone 'has it easy'. But I don't think that he will understand, given that we have stated as much over and over and he hasn't understood it yet.

So I don't think there is much point in discussing it further.

On the upside, what you said about feminism actually motivated me to do some research into it. So I have learned rather a lot from this thread and let go of my own misconceptions on feminism.

On this thread, there are numerous studies done and results that show that expectations are more numerous and higher for women. So it is actually a fact, rather then speculation. Hopefully that will change in the future and people will be considered more acceptable just being the individuals they are, with the natural bodies that nature gave them.

We are damned if we do complain, and damned if we don't. :shrug:

Sounds like a good excuse to do whatever you want, to me. To hell with what people want and expect you to do, do what you think will make you happy. Actually, I don't think people even need an excuse to do that. Cut loose.

Actually no, feminism originally was to make equal men and women. In logical corners of the later feminism, don't remember which wave, it was determined that there will always be different expectations of different genders. No doubt feminism originally had good intent, but anologous to "tea party", it has been hijacked into exaggerating expectations of women which are already known to be higher in certain circumstances, then downplaying that of men and pretending like one actually cares about equality and is from some educated viewpoint. It's not. What it has turned into is exactly what I'm responding to, a soapbox for complaining.


Wrong again. I've cited numerous times now that you have the same patriarchal attitude but instead of being toward men it's toward society and things resembling Hollywood. Strangely, you still insist on saying it's blaming men despite posts saying the contrary. You sure it's me that's confused? I don't think you've even read what I've posted at all.


I thought you already did research on it? Or I must be confused at how often you use the word "fact" when talking about your "opinion"?

Honestly, I don't want to sound dismissive of your (perfectly entitled) opinion, but I still think you're missing my point. The fact that there is a longer and larger history of womens' bodily perception being threatening and objectifying is just a fact. This does not in any way negate the fact that objectification of men does occur - and it does - just that it has never been in the sheer insidious quantity, and not with the same social repercussions. Nor does this fact mean I can't sympathise with men who are being objectified. I think you're getting emotional and taking a simple factual statement very personally, when it isn't neccessary to do so.

I'm sorry but, the more and more post I read of Meek's, the only thing I get out of any of them is "I'm a woman, I have a hard life because men are dogs, all men are the same, and no one can ever have personal preferences based solely off of themselves, and all men are blinded by what media wants a woman to look like, please feel sorry for my six".
:shrug:
Woman are guilty of the exact same things that men are. Woman sleep around. Woman have expectations of men. Woman gossip about men and how "big" they are, don't at like it doesn't happen, because if you say it doesn't, you're a lair or just misinformed.
2 sides of the coin, and both sides are equal. You're not special just because you have a [censored].

I'm confused at the emotional part. I'm well too familiar with debating, and maybe you're seeing a bit of annoyance, but this topic was tackled in school not more than 6 months ago or and I was constantly being told how today is no different than the 60s, which created in our Sociology class more than a little war of words back and forth between two groups. Sufficed to say I have been familiarized with contemporary feminism (extremely popular in the San Francisco Bay Area) and indeed I do despise it. People get treated differently all the time, of course women do more, and both sixes do for different reasons and different ways. I don't think there's any way of changing most of these, especially when there's so many people (in this topic's case, women) who bank off of being objectified. Sadly I respect these people because surely they recognize the differences but hey, even if Meek's societal/Hollywood patriarchal thing is true, they are certainly using their objectifying to bank and as Katt Williams says, are "in tune with their star player".