Are women held to a higher standard?

Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:30 pm

Hmm...

Well, appearance-wise I think it's about the same. A guy needs to go through hell to look good. Work out, fix his hair, shave (or maintain his facial hair by trimming), dress up nice. A girl has to do the same, work out, fix her hair, apply makeup, dress up nice.

However, there is definitely more pressure on guys in other departments. Girls aren't exactly expected to run an entire household, or pay the bills. But that's in general ofcourse, I'm sure there are some women that do this, and they're thoroughly respected. By me, at least. :P
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Erika Ellsworth
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:24 pm

There are some areas where men are generally held to high standards, or more is expected from them than women. There are some areas where the reverse is true.

I think in Western society today women are expected to meet all of the higher expectations of their gender and when more is expected of men there's considerable pressure to match those expectations as well. However I don't believe the reverse is generally true for men. I was a stay-at-home father for several years and I never felt any societal pressure or obligation to excel here although I'd like to think I did anyway.
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Micah Judaeah
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:49 pm

If you want to talk about expectations and how they are higher for women....as a woman just walk outside without shaving your legs or armpits. Treat yourself to disgusted remarks and disgusted looks aimed at you because you are a woman and are not adhering to the stereotypical woman image. Kinda hard to walk outside like that anyway, takes a heck o' lot of guts, especially as we are programmed to believe that our worth in society is dependant on how we look. Walk outside as a man with unshaven legs or armpits and notice the difference.


Sorry, but there really is no comparison. As women we are not even allowed our natural bodies, they are considered unsuitable for society and that is really sick. We have to remove 'unsightly' hair, plaster on makeup, cover grey hair, hold in any natural bodily function like farting or burping (which quite frankly can be fricken painful), be underweight. If we don't do these things we don't fit into society. You may say we have a choice...we don't...we do it or we are not tolerated, our femininity is questioned and even our mental state. We are labeled one or more of many really nasty names commonly applied to women who don't adher to society's image of how a woman should be. What she should look like, how much she should weigh, how she should be having children, holding down a career, caring for her appearance, keeping her husband sixually interested in her...the list goes on and on.

Just look at all the adverts on TV. The woman is constantly portrayed cooking and serving their waiting family who are sitting round the table expectantly, women are always cleaning and doing the washing and ironing, always being the parent, having a career, shopping constantly, managing the household, needing to loose weight in spite of the actors shown always being underweight, needing that new makeup to hide those imperfections .... Men are portrayed as the stupid husband who can't do anything or get anything right and just sit on the couch watching TV, being fed their meals and needing caring for.

Neither portrayal is correct or fair, however when you consider it in terms of expectations...women have considerably more. This portrayal of womens supposed 'role' that makes her a 'woman', is prevalent in TV, film, magazines etc... and is enforced by peers.

There are no expectations on men regarding appearance. They can shave or not. They don't feel pressured to apply makeup, cover grey hair. After all, men with grey hair are 'distinguished', women with grey hair are old, past it, no longer fertile..For example...Society laughs indulgantly and tolerantly at the man who is wearing socks or underwear he pulled out of his laundry basket, he is a guy, it is to be allowed. Boys will be boys. Think about a woman doing that and see how the perception is so different.


As for the wage thing, it is by no means equal and while my own experience may seem just one person's experience, it is a LOT more common then you would think.

Firstly in most jobs you are not allowed to discuss your wages with co-workers so you never have a really good idea, at least that has been my experience. I did discuss mine with a male co-worker one quiet evening while working in a store, when I was in my mid twenties. He told me his hourly wage and I was appalled that it was 2 dollars an hour more then mine. Why?.....

Him

19 years old
No previous customer service or job experience
High school education
Joined the company one month ago.

Me

25 years old
6 years of customer service experience
University education
In my fourth year of working for the company

So why was I paid so much less? I was single, no children, had a better attendance record then my male counterpart and guess who was always available when the boss was desperate for emloyees to cover shifts? I worked many 12 hour shifts for that company.

So before I finish here, let me address the inevitable....

Yes, I do shave my legs and armpits
No, I am not ugly.
Yes, I am heterosixual.
I wear make up (not much though as I prefer natural beauty)
Most importantly, no I am not a 'feminist', I believe that is the term applied to any woman who dares point out any sort of inequality.
No, I don't hate men. I do believe they are subject to unrealistic expectations and stupid stereotypes as well. Just not as much as women.

Ultimately, in my opinion this stereotyping will not change until media changes, given that media dictates so much in our lives. It is not about gender equality, it is about individual equality and the removal of judgement based on race, gender, age, etc...etc...etc....


Women have the "I have boobs" phenomenon. It may sound sixist, but I routinely see women held to LOWER standards and expectations because they are women. A woman does not have to achieve as much or work as hard to get an opportunity in many places as compared to a man. A woman can be promoted having done less than a man. A woman can keep her job even though she does less than a man in the same position. Absent certain physical factors, I don't consider women inferior to men when it comes to most any job duty that might be asked of them, but many employers just don't feel right about expecting women to do what they'd not hesitate to ask of a man.



That is just not true. On the contrary women are considered less capable of doing a job and therefore have a much harder time convincing otherwise.

Men, in contrast, can be held to some insane expectations based on what society thinks defines "manliness." Like a bunch of pubascent teenage boys in the locker room with a ruler sizing each other up, it seems men are always in this subtle competition to prove themselves king of the hill, and if you are deficient in any number of physical attributes or talents, you are viewed as a "momma's boy."



Men's [censored] size is not constantly portrayed by media and peers. Women's briasts are always under discussion, they are sixualized, scrutinized, compared, there are a thousand derogatory words for a woman's briasts. There is absolutely no comparison. Womens briasts are on display for judgement and criticism constantly. Bigger is better, bigger is better.... Media is not flooded with images of male genitalia, on the contrary, it is taboo to show male genitalia. Woman are judged by the size of their breats, even their intellect is judged by this. Their worth is judged by their briasts. briasts are so promenant on a woman's body and so obvious to society, especially when society is obsessed with briasts.
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sarah taylor
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:46 pm

Meek, thank you for saying everything I couldn't.

So before I finish here, let me address the inevitable....

Yes, I do shave my legs and armpits
No, I am not ugly.
Yes, I am heterosixual.
I wear make up (not much though as I prefer natural beauty)
Most importantly, no I am not a 'feminist', I believe that is the term applied to any woman who dares point out any sort of inequality.
No, I don't hate men. I do believe they are subject to unrealistic expectations and stupid stereotypes as well. Just not as much as women.

It's such a shame you have to even tack this list onto the end of a post like that, but 'inevitable' is right. However, I have to disagree with you about feminism. It's part of the ingrained societal values you rightly trashed in your post that have made both men and women view 'feminism' as something negative and derogatory, when in truth, all people who believe in equality of respect and opportunity - male AND female - should be calling themselves feminists.
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Trish
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:01 pm

Yes.


I love how you say this, so blissfully unaware. Who could have asked for a more perfect example to illustrate from? Read it back. Does the phrase social conditioning mean anything to you?

I'd like to give an example of a certain bias from a subject that's close to all our hearts, if I may. Being a gamer who is also a woman, I have constantly been expected to "prove my credentials" in order to fit in with various communities. If you play the sims: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't play games that involve a lot of violence: you're not a proper gamer. If you play on a DS or anything similar: you're not a proper gamer. If you take care of your appearance and/or take pictures of yourself: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't spend a certain percentage of your time on games: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't spend all that time on "masculine" games and get much higher than average results: you're not a proper gamer. If you remind me of that girl who snubbed me in high school but who cares she was just some shallow dumb ho anyway: you're not a proper gamer.



That's the thing though. You just care too much what others think. Why should you have to prove you are a proper gamer?
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Sara Lee
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:56 pm

Hmm difficult to answer I won't say yes or not because it is kinda both and I hate getting into arguments with people but I will say this. A good amount of women need to realize they don't have to live up to the gender stereotypes the media and other outlets spit out and this goes out for both sixs . Sure it there is some leeway hence the biological female can birth children there is a few things with that as well but .....I am not sure what to say now :shrug: Also, I could go all about social conditioning for both male and females but I think I would make a bug bulky post. Personally don't let social conditioning make you the person you are . You make yourself the best you can....wait I already kinda said that...
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Loane
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:08 pm

That's the thing though. You just care too much what others think.


I think she already said that she avoids those kind of conversations that lead to her credentials as a gamer.

Most women however feel the need to prove themselves and go through such "screening" because it seems so odd in our society for a women to like to do such things (especially to such a hardcoe demographic as "gamers"). I think what her point is is that women shouldn't have to go through things like that just because it doesn't fit the image society has painted them in.

One could also argue that caring about what others think is a trait that has been applied to most women by said society in the first place.
Why should you have to prove you are a proper gamer?


I don't know if you are asking her this question directly, or if it is in fact a more generalized question similar to "why do women have to prove themselves as gamers" but keep in mind that we're discussing all women and society at large. When you get down to the individual level, all preconceptions and stereotypes get thrown out the window.

Sorry if it seemed as if I was speaking on your behalf Rumpleteasza (I wasn't), I just wanted to throw in my own interpretation of this conversation.
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Franko AlVarado
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:54 pm

That's the thing though. You just care too much what others think.

There's a degree of not caring what others think that's healthy for you, but the problem is, what others think of you controls much of how they treat you. People are going to disagree with you over the internet, and it's not productive to obsess over that. However, if every single time you tried to enter a discussion people said "No, you're too stupid for this conversation. Get out of our thread", that's less easy to just shrug off and ignore. Even if you can be wrongly and constantly called stupid by virtually everyone without being bothered, you're still punished by being denied the ability to participate in discussions.

It's a bit of an odd comparison, but it still applies. Society tells women that their value as a person is dependent on their appearance. Society not only tells them that, but tells both men and other women to treat them as such. Not caring what they think can work in favor of self-esteem and general life happiness, but it also invites terrible treatment from virtually everyone, every day, and ends up being far more of a negative on that person's life. Cultural norms are often far more powerful than just "not caring so much what others think".
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Thema
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:54 pm

Let me just say that I do not hold any person to expectations higher than I do myself. As to the original question: yes.

Also:
I'm gonna drop this here and call it even...

http://www.forwardedfunnies.com/why_do_men_die_first_000448.html

This ^
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flora
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:03 am

There's a degree of not caring what others think that's healthy for you, but the problem is, what others think of you controls much of how they treat you. People are going to disagree with you over the internet, and it's not productive to obsess over that. However, if every single time you tried to enter a discussion people said "No, you're too stupid for this conversation. Get out of our thread", that's less easy to just shrug off and ignore. Even if you can be wrongly and constantly called stupid by virtually everyone without being bothered, you're still punished by being denied the ability to participate in discussions.

It's a bit of an odd comparison, but it still applies. Society tells women that their value as a person is dependent on their appearance. Society not only tells them that, but tells both men and other women to treat them as such. Not caring what they think can work in favor of self-esteem and general life happiness, but it also invites terrible treatment from virtually everyone, every day, and ends up being far more of a negative on that person's life. Cultural norms are often far more powerful than just "not caring so much what others think".

Agreed, well put.
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Jessica Colville
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:46 pm

Overall, women and men are held to the same amount of standards, but they are not held to the same standards. A man who has a lot of six is just being a man, a woman who does is being a...well, you get it. There's a lot of stuff that happens to men, or that men do, due to standards, and the same goes for women.

It pretty much evens out.
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k a t e
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:41 am

If you want to talk about expectations and how they are higher for women....as a woman just walk outside without shaving your legs or armpits. Treat yourself to disgusted remarks and disgusted looks aimed at you because you are a woman and are not adhering to the stereotypical woman image. Kinda hard to walk outside like that anyway, takes a heck o' lot of guts, especially as we are programmed to believe that our worth in society is dependant on how we look. Walk outside as a man with unshaven legs or armpits and notice the difference.


Sorry, but there really is no comparison. As women we are not even allowed our natural bodies, they are considered unsuitable for society and that is really sick. We have to remove 'unsightly' hair, plaster on makeup, cover grey hair, hold in any natural bodily function like farting or burping (which quite frankly can be fricken painful), be underweight. If we don't do these things we don't fit into society. You may say we have a choice...we don't...we do it or we are not tolerated, our femininity is questioned and even our mental state. We are labeled one or more of many really nasty names commonly applied to women who don't adher to society's image of how a woman should be. What she should look like, how much she should weigh, how she should be having children, holding down a career, caring for her appearance, keeping her husband sixually interested in her...the list goes on and on.


In my experience, the average person does not react this heavily to a woman who didn't shave or is fat. The ideal woman is thin, big-boobed, bare as a baby's bottom, etc. but the vast majority are not and I don't think that the vast majority suffers from it to the degree described. While society does hold us to certain beauty standards, it is up to us (women) to decide to follow them. I know plenty of ladies who don't shave their legs or wear makeup, and are perfectly happy that way. I would go so far as to say that the mark of a woman, as opposed to a girl, is being able to say "[censored] you" to societal standards of beauty and do what feels right for you.
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Nancy RIP
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:42 am

I'm pretty sure it's exactly the opposite, except appearance wise.
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Ryan Lutz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:12 pm

Men's [censored] size is not constantly portrayed by media and peers. Women's briasts are always under discussion, they are sixualized, scrutinized, compared, there are a thousand derogatory words for a woman's briasts. There is absolutely no comparison. Womens briasts are on display for judgement and criticism constantly. Bigger is better, bigger is better.... Media is not flooded with images of male genitalia, on the contrary, it is taboo to show male genitalia. Woman are judged by the size of their breats, even their intellect is judged by this. Their worth is judged by their briasts. briasts are so promenant on a woman's body and so obvious to society, especially when society is obsessed with briasts.


Yeah, but uh, those briasts are on women. It's not like they're being forced at gunpoint by men to put them display. The obsession wouldn't lessen if they weren't, because frankly, briasts are awesome, I'm a small-briast man myself, can't fathom the large variety, but uh, yeah, in an equal opportunities free society, briasts emerged onto the open market for all to see... there was no forced at gunpoint get your boobs out for the lads going on, liberated women were liberating themselves by bearing all. It wasn't expected of them, me thinks, celebrities were born getting them out, and if you get them out, a guy will look, then he'll nudge his mate they'll both look, then the world stops turning for a while. Believe me if guys had briasts you'd be seeing way more of them.

S'like women's fashion. Heels aren't pushed onto women to make their feet hurt, or skirts made by guys so that guys can see their legs... I'm attracted to a nice pants suit and sensible shoes, and there's nothing I hate more than walking next to a girl on the way home from a night out, and having her declare that her feet hurt, so she walks barefoot for a while, and then I have to carry her the rest of the way, having sacrificed my jacket which she wraps up in while my teeth pvssyr, and all because she wouldn't wear jeans, a jacket and a t-shirt to go out. There is no pressure to look good, if there was I wouldn't see so many woman with frazzly hairdos, overweight... whatever. It's only pressure when you let it be.

If you let your leg hair grow, and you want to go out in shorts, ring me and I'll shave my legs and go out with you in heels. Let's see who gets the most looks. lol

BTW, breats* is my favourite typo. :biggrin:
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An Lor
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:25 am

Meek, thank you for saying everything I couldn't.

It's such a shame you have to even tack this list onto the end of a post like that, but 'inevitable' is right. However, I have to disagree with you about feminism. It's part of the ingrained societal values you rightly trashed in your post that have made both men and women view 'feminism' as something negative and derogatory, when in truth, all people who believe in equality of respect and opportunity - male AND female - should be calling themselves feminists.

Probably depends where you are from. I prescribe to equality when equal work can be done for equal pay, and rights are gender unbiased, but being from California, I have an extremely negative connotation of "feminist" as women who are in the 2nd decade of the 21st century who act like this is still the 60s and 70s, and vie for favoritism (ex. girl can hit guy but guy cannot hit back) instead of equality (don't hit anyone). Obviously I do not prescribe to feminism like this, nor do I like aggressive mid-late 20th century type of feminism when there have been great improvements for equality's sake. Much like the issue of race bias, I'm in doubt it will ever truly be solved, even though there have been great leaps forward.

Other than that, I agree with most of Meek's post, except the briasts part.. societies since beyond the early Greeks idolized the female body and briasts. It's just something guys like to see, and indeed if you wanna work in Vegas, even as a bartender, then invoke Rule 31. I don't think the high number of extremely obese males, especially in the US, get the same opportunities one with a more toned body and symmetrical face. Unfortunately people always have and will discriminate, it's just a matter of what the flavor of the day is.
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Eve(G)
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:06 am

In my experience, the average person does not react this heavily to a woman who didn't shave or is fat. The ideal woman is thin, big-boobed, bare as a baby's bottom, etc. but the vast majority are not and I don't think that the vast majority suffers from it to the degree described. While society does hold us to certain beauty standards, it is up to us (women) to decide to follow them. I know plenty of ladies who don't shave their legs or wear makeup, and are perfectly happy that way. I would go so far as to say that the mark of a woman, as opposed to a girl, is being able to say "[censored] you" to societal standards of beauty and do what feels right for you.

OH man, when PCOS reared it's ugly head after the birth of my son, I went through hell. I became overly muscular, my chin grew hairy, my belly distended, even with exerscise and eating healthy, I looked horrible. I was asked if I was a dyke, transixual, made fun of, jeered at by students, people felt that they had the right to comment on my appearance. I was a 36-26-26 who ended up looking like the she-hulk. I can't tell you how many days I came home crying because of something some [censored] said. Avout something I had absolutely no control over. Medications have helped, but there is no cure for this miserable disease.

The irony that thousands of xx women with ovaries suffer from this and are considered below acceptable standards for how women should look, based on the fashion industry, (which is known to employ xy individuals with CAIS, a condition of complex psycological and physiologial issues in it's own right), that irony is not lost on me.
I quit wearing makeup, still no wrinkles at age 43. I get so tired of flipping through magazines that tell us no matter how hard we try to look perfect, we won't ever be, but this product can make us more beautiful, more desireable, more powerful. Yeah, .....right.
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jadie kell
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:51 am

Because this thread involves society, there's really only one answer: No matter what, you are to be as society dictates.

That being said, I think the "higher standard" varies based upon the scenario. Work? Dress? Etiquette? Athletics? Creativity? There are certain areas where society says a female should have no talent in, and there are certain areas where society expects both of her X chromosomes to carry the weight.

Ultimately, being as broad as referring to society leaves responses to either generalize in a sixist manned, or accept that you're asking a question that is "yes" in some parts and "no" in others. I advise specification for an indisputable answer.
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Gwen
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:57 pm


Men's [censored] size is not constantly portrayed by media and peers. Women's briasts are always under discussion, they are sixualized, scrutinized, compared, there are a thousand derogatory words for a woman's briasts. There is absolutely no comparison. Womens briasts are on display for judgement and criticism constantly. Bigger is better, bigger is better.... Media is not flooded with images of male genitalia, on the contrary, it is taboo to show male genitalia. Woman are judged by the size of their breats, even their intellect is judged by this. Their worth is judged by their briasts. briasts are so promenant on a woman's body and so obvious to society, especially when society is obsessed with briasts.

Well, atleast whole women isnt sixualised anymore in the western/modern societies.
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:44 pm

Sometimes higher, sometimes lower, mostly different
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Robyn Lena
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:30 am

Not higher but different. Also I think many many people underestimate the pressures on men. They're more subtle but equally as strong.
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keri seymour
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:12 am

Everyone has a certain role they're expected to fill.
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Kelly James
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:12 pm

No.
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Sherry Speakman
 
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Post » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:48 pm

I love me a women who can cook, has brains, and can challenge me to duels!!! I have a girl that can do two of those things, but I haven't been able to challenge me to any sort of competition yet...
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T. tacks Rims
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:19 am

Meek, thank you for saying everything I couldn't.


It's such a shame you have to even tack this list onto the end of a post like that, but 'inevitable' is right. However, I have to disagree with you about feminism. It's part of the ingrained societal values you rightly trashed in your post that have made both men and women view 'feminism' as something negative and derogatory, when in truth, all people who believe in equality of respect and opportunity - male AND female - should be calling themselves feminists.


I know a lot of people who have changed to referring to themselves as egalitarian, due to the distorted view some people have of feminism. Because certain media outlets have used "feminism" as some kind of blanket description for surly, man hating, power hungry harpies, and because people for some reason seem to think that the kind of radical feminism which I think was only really an issue in the seventies is what every feminist adheres to, and because certain public figures have hijacked the term to highlight some specific agenda which may not be agreed on universally by feminists, they just give the whole thing a miss. I only know one man now who identifies himself as a feminist, all the others just go for egalitarian - it's just less hassle than having to explain yourself every time.
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TWITTER.COM
 
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Post » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:43 am

I think she already said that she avoids those kind of conversations that lead to her credentials as a gamer.

Most women however feel the need to prove themselves and go through such "screening" because it seems so odd in our society for a women to like to do such things (especially to such a hardcoe demographic as "gamers"). I think what her point is is that women shouldn't have to go through things like that just because it doesn't fit the image society has painted them in.

One could also argue that caring about what others think is a trait that has been applied to most women by said society in the first place.


I don't know if you are asking her this question directly, or if it is in fact a more generalized question similar to "why do women have to prove themselves as gamers" but keep in mind that we're discussing all women and society at large. When you get down to the individual level, all preconceptions and stereotypes get thrown out the window.

Sorry if it seemed as if I was speaking on your behalf Rumpleteasza (I wasn't), I just wanted to throw in my own interpretation of this conversation.

I don't mind you speaking for me here, as I agree with all your points and you basically typed my answer for me :) I guess the point is not to ask me "why do you care so much about what people think about you?" but instead ask my questioners "Why do you feel the need to 'verify her credentials', causing her to defend herself (ie, make her care what others think about her)?" Make this exchange impersonal and universal, and you have the problem of social conditioning.

I know a lot of people who have changed to referring to themselves as egalitarian, due to the distorted view some people have of feminism. Because certain media outlets have used "feminism" as some kind of blanket description for surly, man hating, power hungry harpies, and because people for some reason seem to think that the kind of radical feminism which I think was only really an issue in the seventies is what every feminist adheres to, and because certain public figures have hijacked the term to highlight some specific agenda which may not be agreed on universally by feminists, they just give the whole thing a miss. I only know one man now who identifies himself as a feminist, all the others just go for egalitarian - it's just less hassle than having to explain yourself every time.

The bolded section is sadly how I now feel about almost all discussions of this type these days. I don't know about you, but I just get so tired of having to explain things to people who simply don't care about equality and have no intention of being yanked out of their comfotable, privileged little worldviews (not that I'm not privileged in many ways myself, but that's a different can of worms). The only reason I engaged in this thread is because I trust this board and most of the people on it to be intelligent and open to discussion. Looking at many of the responses, I was right, and I'm glad for that.

As an aside, I'd like to point out that my experiences of having to 'prove credentials' is also something that has never happened on this board, probably one of the reasons I've stuck around for so long. Funnily enough, the prove credentials thing tends to happen to me more in real life - possibly because people have a harder time keeping what they're feeling off their faces.
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Hearts
 
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