I've been formulating and polishing this thought that I've come up with. Basically the thought that women have to perform above average just to be recognized. I mean physically they are expected to be beautiful, either through make-up or other superficial additions to their anatomy and they seem to have a lower wage (from what I've seen).

Little social nuances that men perform are usually frowned upon when a women does them (Belching or farting loudly) Men can get away with such things in more social settings than women can (again from what I've seen).

Women's rights are still not equal to mens in some countries (I've never heard of a society or country where women were above men, if you know of any I'd love to hear about them).

I had a couple other points to make on this subject, but Ill edit this post when I remember them and I gain access to the internet again (I'm currently in a Starbucks and didn't form a draft for this topic when I was offline).

So yeah the gist of this is: Do women bear more of society's seemingly rigorous standards than men do?

I look forward to hearing your opinions on this subject.

I agree they are appearance wise but in other categories not so much.

It's kinda, funny; I've always thought that woman were held to much lower standards; after all, they're, y'know, girls, so who's to argue with them? But come to think of it, you may be correct. Just another unfortunate aspect of our society, I suppose. It'll probably pass someday.

Bold.

I remember making a similar statement in the "what do you dislike about the opposite gender." and everyone claimed I was brainwashed...

Women are held to higher standards. As the orignal post has said and more. In most cases, (not all but most) they have to be the Mother and take care of the family at home and do thier day jobs at work. They to be the cleaner, cook, Dr, and what ever else for the family. While at least in North America (well I should say USA and Canada because I don't know what it is like in Mexico) it is suppose to be a 50/50 split in most house holds that is not the case.

The woman has more burdan then men. They have to deal with what "society" says how women should look, they have to Prove that they deserve the same wages as men (as they should) and they still need to act like a lady. While alot of barries have been broken, women have a long way to go between they are fully treated equal. Thing is with Hollywood and magazines and Society telling people how they need to look and act, women will never fully be treated equally.

While the maybe treated equal with pay scale hopefully soon, but when it comes to how they should look and act, that is a different story and will take longer for "society" to treat women equally.

I'm gonna drop this here and call it even...

http://www.forwardedfunnies.com/why_do_men_die_first_000448.html

Wow that amazing, every word of it is true. I do have to say though that I think it's not right that society puts women down if they don't have double-D briast and a super model face.

It depends.

Depends.

In some areas, a women will make more than a guy with the same job and qualifications. Usually, the woman in question is unmarried and has no kids. Colleges are becoming more female dominated, along with my own having a 64F : 56M ratio if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately women bear more of a tolerant and weak makeup that enforces gender roles that even young children can understand when by far the majority of them go to their mother to get away with something (or leniency), or for more sympathy, or that family understands when they congratulate the male for an achievement that a female would be similarly chastised for. Men and women will never be truly equal in this sense, because they're not.. men are men, women are women. We attempt all of these changes to try and make true this strange politically correct nuisance of contemporary equality when men and women are both biologically and socially different.

Super models have faces? News to me.

You could argue every which way on this topic.

There are inherent benefits and burdens for being male or female. Equal treatment? Men and women will never be treated truly equal. *activates flame shield* "Equality" is a basically complete b.s. that will never be truly attained. I understand the need to strive for equality, but it is a goal that will always be out of reach. Nature of the beast if you will.

Two different sixes, two different standards. Sad but true. We have gender roles in our society. For as silly as this seems in these modern times, sometime these roles actually fulfill a need within our society.

I don't like the idea of anyone having to wear the yolk of a gender role, but hey, life isn't fair.

Yes, I think so, although it's getting better. I was reading something the other day about artist Judith Leyster. One of her paintings had been wrongly attributed to her teacher/friend Frans (a man), and it was called "one of the finest he ever painted". Only later it was shown to be Judiths'. Art critics said that "Some women artists tend to emulate Frans Hals, but the vigorous brush strokes were beyond their capability. One only has to look at the work of a painter like Judith Leyster to detect the weakness of the feminine hand."
I remember reading somewhere how women studying typically "male" subjects at Uni were more like to be graded more harshly. IIRC it was in "Living Dolls", but I'm not sure.
And obviously women are more sixualised than men - just go to the beach with one and have both you take your tops off - see which one gets the scandalised looks (even though I've seen bare chested men with cup sizes that would put mine to shame lol). Then there's the trainer make up sets that you can buy children, the padded bras for 8 year olds, the tiny high heels for babies that can't even walk yet...

Both genders have sometimes unreasonable expectations they feel that they have to live up to.

I'm speaking from a US-based perspective.

Do women have it better or worse? Hard call.

Certainly, a woman is ranked in society based on attractiveness, but the same is true for men in its own way. Compare the life of an average or unattractive male to that of a good looking male and you will note a big difference in how he is treated and elevated in society.

Lower wages for women? Largely bunk. Most employers do not differ in pay based on gender alone, and most discrepancies vanish when you factor in education and prior experience of the individual workers. Many women don't come into a job with the experience or education of their male counterpart, hence they get a lower salary (if pay is based on what they brought to the table). Also add in that most places pay based on a negotiated salary. Men do tend to be better at negotiating a salary, but women can be just as effective if they will assert themselves. This is why many employers say it's taboo to discuss your salary...because even 5 guys in the same job might be getting different pay scales. I had a job where I was offered $22,000 a year, and they made it sound like they were really reaching to offer me that. I later found out that my two female co-workers in the same job classification made more than I did. One made sense as she was there the longest, but while the other was there a couple of years ahead of me, I had more education but she still was paid more than I.

Women have the "I have boobs" phenomenon. It may sound sixist, but I routinely see women held to LOWER standards and expectations because they are women. A woman does not have to achieve as much or work as hard to get an opportunity in many places as compared to a man. A woman can be promoted having done less than a man. A woman can keep her job even though she does less than a man in the same position. Absent certain physical factors, I don't consider women inferior to men when it comes to most any job duty that might be asked of them, but many employers just don't feel right about expecting women to do what they'd not hesitate to ask of a man.

Men, in contrast, can be held to some insane expectations based on what society thinks defines "manliness." Like a bunch of pubascent teenage boys in the locker room with a ruler sizing each other up, it seems men are always in this subtle competition to prove themselves king of the hill, and if you are deficient in any number of physical attributes or talents, you are viewed as a "momma's boy."

This is why I always laugh at feminists who think women have it so bad in America. They don't realize that men have it different...not necessarily better. Many of the health issues that are cutting down women today (heart attacks and strokes) are directly tied to the feminist movement in America. They wanted to have the same career opportunities as a man. Now they have it...along with all the stress and bad habits that life brings. Women don't outlive men because it's just natural....men live lives that impose burdens that ultimately take years off of how long we would have otherwise lived.

It's really the woman's preference. I don't think anyone will mind if a woman doesn't wear makeup. Sure she won't be as attractive, but I don't think anyone is going to go out of their way to make them wear it. But for men to be attractive they usually need a somewhat sculpted body, good hair, etc. Same stuff applies. I think anyone farting in public is kind of frowned upon, but females seem to be shy of it.

I think rights are equal. There is a difference between man and woman, yes, but I'm kind of glad girls don't go around making slobs of themselves. To be completely honest I think even a male making a slob of himself is still bad, I see no difference.

Do they have higher standards? No.
Do they have different standards? Yes.

Yes.


I love how you say this, so blissfully unaware. Who could have asked for a more perfect example to illustrate from? Read it back. Does the phrase social conditioning mean anything to you?

I'd like to give an example of a certain bias from a subject that's close to all our hearts, if I may. Being a gamer who is also a woman, I have constantly been expected to "prove my credentials" in order to fit in with various communities. If you play the sims: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't play games that involve a lot of violence: you're not a proper gamer. If you play on a DS or anything similar: you're not a proper gamer. If you take care of your appearance and/or take pictures of yourself: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't spend a certain percentage of your time on games: you're not a proper gamer. If you don't spend all that time on "masculine" games and get much higher than average results: you're not a proper gamer. If you remind me of that girl who snubbed me in high school but who cares she was just some shallow dumb ho anyway: you're not a proper gamer.

I've been to places where I've been quizzed to a ridiculous degree what my scores and statistics are. They generally have to be pretty high for some people to grudgingly afford me the label of "proper gamer" (not that I bother reciting anything like that now; I no longer feel the need to prove myself). I have never, ever seen a man have to defend his hobby the way I've had to in the past; he'll mention he plays a game, and it's just another part of the conversation. I get the third [censored] degree.

Granted it's better now than it used to be - possibly because I've got better at avoiding those circles, or because I downright refuse to engage in those conversations - but it's still there. And that's just one tiny drop in the ocean.


I honest-to-god burst out laughing at this.

Absolutely.

This is, however, a very touchy subject and I'll only post this, but in today's society, it's good to be the victim. People compete on who has a worse life or who has it harder and things like that. Being a victim means everything you do is in spite of the obstacles you've had to overcome.

Every human being has a hard life, regardless of how easy it may seem to others, we all have our obstacles and it isn't easy for anyone. In general, as a whole, women have it harder and have always had it harder than men. It is, however, very difficult from a male perspective to see that sometimes, as men have it really bad in different ways, but it's also difficult for men to see the privilege that they really have in society.

No. If anything they're held to a lower standard. In the military the standard physical requirements are less for women. Many corporations give women paid time off late in their pregnancy. Just two examples where women are given special treatment due to their nature.

Hell. Yes.

I work in an office that's about 2/3 female. I can't count the times as a single guy with no kids I've been called on to work longer/harder because a female coworker had to leave work early to pick up little Isabella or Jacob because their school called saying they're sick. I've also worked much harder for months because a female coworker was on maternity leave. I can't fully appreciate how difficult it must be to have small children or want to start a family and needing to work full time. Still, it doesn't make me feel less put upon when I'm busting my chops over someone's reproductive choices.

Ironically girls judge other girls on their weight and looks, alot. Men do it but not to be mean and not in her face (usually) And don't tell me you've never seen a [censored]y girl insult a guy down just for the sake of being a [censored].


I agree most with this.

per-say I don't think they have to work harder to do well in life. It can be harder for her but no amount of extra work will change whether she is discriminated against, cause in the eyes of the discriminater, she's still a women. No, it's not fair.
I'm all for equal rights and all that, but I can't stand some feminist ideology because it's not about equality anymore, it's about complaining "Men cause this and that" "things would be better if women ran things". The problem with the world is that humans are flawed. We (as humans) can be greedy, hateful, stupid, ect. it has nothing to do with male/female. If males and females are so equal then why would the world suddenly be better if women had the "power" in the world and then men were the ones "oppressed"?

Doesn't that work the other way around as-well?
If it's difficult for men to see it from a women perspective then isn't it hard for a woman to see it from a man perspective?

EDIT: to answer the quest more plainly: no, they may get treat unfairly but they're not held to higher standard. They have different standard then men, but (going to the perspective point) I can say men have higher standards.

Many women aren't given time off during pregnancy, and for most women who take the maternity leave, it isn't paid. Family Medical Leave Act guarantees them the time off, but not the pay. Pay is up to the discretion of the employer. Personally knowing women (parents of students who are in the military), I can honestly say these women are in shape, and can damn sure pull their weight, be it hiking with heavy packs, lifting heavy loads, or repairing heavy machinery. I've worked overtime while male coworkers played golf, while they've recuperated during surgery, and workaholic that I was, I looked at it as an opportunity to earn more.
Women are referred to as the weaker six, have to perform outstandingly to equate the pay of men who perform mediocrely, this has happened to me countless times. Women are lambasted if they don't nurture, if they spend money on looking good, or if they don't look good, they are often the scapegoat when it comes to parenting, driving, and car failure. No [censored] they are held to a higher standard. Women overseas in war ravaged countries for the US are losing their children when their marriages collapse. I've seen plenty of fathers who couldn't say no and indulged their children's every whim. I've seen plenty of fathers who didn't show their children proper hygeine or nutrition, didn't know the pediatricians number, the teacher's name, or the child's favorite school subject. Those same dads played the pity card. It's not always single mothers who have parenting inadequacies, and there are some that do, not denying that. PEOPLE screw up.
Sterotyping genders gets us nowhere but the same donut hole.
As for victimization, more men [censored] and physically assault women than women do men. Most women who are assaulted will suffer this at the hands of men they know.
Yet a woman will be told she dressed too provactively, or was in the wrong place.

As for me, my husband is going through his tenth hospitilzation/short term leave/surgical procedures in our two decades together, I do the yardwork, take out the garbage, go to work, clean the house, cook the meals, do the laundry, although the kids do help, their schoolwork comes first. I have had two surgeries in the entireity of our marriage, and the recuperation period of one, he was so sick that I had to man the [censored] up and take care of things myself.
I don't hold it against him, stuff happens.
The weaker six... there is no such thing, that 's foolishness. It comes down to the individual.