Not that I want Skyrim to be anything like The Witcher 2, but the game developers from CD Projekt Red have decided to make a controversial decision in terms of their "http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/12/17/the-witcher-2-has-permadeath.aspx."

What are your thoughts on permanent death, and would you support such a system for the highest difficulty of Skyrim (essentially a hardcoe mode)? With the ability to not just reload one's character after death, it would lead to an interesting dynamic of a player always having to watch what they are doing, and avoiding obviously unfavorable situations. It would also be a rather gratifying experience knowing one went through the entire game without dying and truly encompassed the title "Dragonborn." Is this going too far in a game? Has CD Projekt just lost their mind? Am I crazy for suggesting such an idea in a video game? How far are you willing to go in Skyrim?

It would make for interesting gameplay but I wouldnt think a whole lot of people have that kind of time to invest into a single playthrough. I certainly dont. It would be cool as an unlockable mode but that dosnt really fit with beths style.

Interesting tho.

Permadeath? Are you kidding me? Please no. This isn't the Witcher 2. Thankfully.

I'll leave my "one live per game" characters in Diablo 2 and 3(when it comes out).

Heh, I remember a thread about the very same subject when Morrowind was in development, and this is what Pete said back then, 11 years ago

Teh Perma-death resurfaces! I have always been in favour of PD even in multi-player stuff but in TES I can never bloody manage it. I remember there is one veteran player from the IRC chat (and forums I suppose) who is awesome at it.

Voted yes, one day I'll make a point to play a game like this. You might get a bit of flak for mentioning it though, perma death usually doesnt go down well heh

Perhaps. People need to recognize that this would only be an option in "hardcoe" mode though. Not sure if there are any SWG vets around, but permadeath is what made being a Jedi fun all those years ago. Knowing that if you died too many times in one week that you would lose your Jedi forever. Not only did it keep the Jedi population in check, but it made them hide like hermits (just like the films)! It's a radical idea for some very ambitious players, but I would never really expect BGS to actually do it. I just think it would be interesting to see how much the experience differs knowing you could actually "die" and not come back. Sure, it would be frustrating. But how many players would really do the hardcoe mode anyways?

And how many hours of game content is Witcher 2 going to have? Much less than Skyrim I'm sure. So much less that it would be insane to start over from the beginning in Skyrim if you died in the final fight for example.

i dont see the point in this i know it would be an option but still i mean if you really want it just start over on your own

that pete hines thread is gold

TES games (at least the last 2 of them) provide an RP environment where a single playthrough can last hundreds or 1000s of hours as you wander the open world, engaging in side quests and gradual character progression.

Although it's possible to rush through the main quest, that is sort of missing the point of a TES game IMO.

A "Dead is Dead" playthrough could be fun to try, but many people never even complete the main quest after hundreds of hours, and I don't think that feature applies very well to this sort of game where the main quest is almost secondary in importance to exploring the world. It doesn't apply because, unlike most games, in Skyrim (as was previously the case with Oblivion and Morrowind) there won't be a simple finish line that the PC is racing toward to try to finish.

In any case, I don't see why any special feature would need to be added to the game for anyone who wants to try it. Just use your own willpower to start over if you die.

If there is any sort of "hardcoe Mode" I'm much more interested in seeing some features that you wouldn't be able to perform on your own by simply starting over, such as:
- crippling injuries
- weaker healing potions/spells, or less healing during combat
- tougher enemies
- PC needs to eat, drink, sleep frequently or suffer stat penalties

Yes. It would be insane. That is why hardcoe would be for those who would take that risk.

I don't know how long The Witcher 2 will be in total, but the prologue and first chapter are apparently about 10-20 hours of game time. That means it will be extensively longer than the first game, and it's also a lot bigger and not linear, so who knows really.

Who is to say dying is a bad thing?

Frustrating? Perhaps. But it will allow players to adapt and learn to prioritize their characters better and in a more efficient way. Again, this isn't an option for all, as it is a hardcoe mode.

That's a really interesting notion. but it's also a ridiculous one in the since that it would really in inhibit playing the game. you'd have to live in the shadows till you were strong enough to fight multiple opponents. Not to mention you'd probably wouldn't be able to "be who you want" because you'd be more focused on surviving rather than enjoying the game play itself.

You make a good point, but that takes willpower. Making the decision at the beginning removes the possibility of chickening out if one so chooses, thereby forfeiting the need for willpower. :toughninja:

If I was at all interested in perma-death, I'd be chasing after cars with a plastic sword right now.

Indeed. People will spout how much they despise fast travel, yet they will use it anyways because the system is merely there and a convenience.

Ultimately, for the system to be effective, BGS would have to implement it. Again, this would only be for the hardest "hardcoe" difficulty. Most would probably not play on this difficulty anyways, and it would offer a very challenging and different experience for those willing to take the risk of only having one life.

I'm afraid I'm certainly not hardcoe enough. I'm afriad you don't even really understand what you are implying. :shakehead:
It would destroy the game. Period.

Oh trust me, I understand exactly what I'm suggesting. While it sounds like a ridiculous idea, it really takes one's own experience to understand why it is so unique and different. To be quite honest, such a mechanic would actually make a lot of sense in TES. BGS has always been known for complex and hardcoe elements in their games, and permadeath would merely reinforce that approach. TES gives players the ability to play and explore however they'd like. You wouldn't have to put yourself in a life/death situation unless you actually wanted to.

Interestingly, I walk the walk with fast travel, but I don't think I could force myself to do the same for perma-death unless I forced that choice on myself at the beginning. It would just be too tempting to load that save. Fast travel is easy though, as it's fun to explore and feel like you're really hoofing it throughout the world. With perma death though, the frustration of dying would be too tempting to resist going back on I think... for me anyway.

And frustrating.


Really? Honestly, I can't relate Bethesda to "hardcoe".


The game's no fun if there's no risk involved. But the game's no fun if the risk is a several hundred hour save file.

BGS has always made some of the most complex, in-depth and hardcoe RPGs in the industry. Compare TES to any other RPG and you will clearly see that. Especially on consoles, Morrowind was years and years ahead in depth and complexity compared to any other RPG.

"Fun" is a subjective term that everyone defines differently. What is fun to you, may not necessarily be fun to me. It personally wouldn't affect me if permadeath didn't make it into the game, which it likely won't. But permadeath would add an interesting dynamic to the game. If anything, having only one life would add longevity and play time to a person's character, and not force them to just mindlessly plow through all the content. Having permadeath would actually force the player to think about what they are doing, and considering what repercussions their actions could have. Permadeath could lead to some interesting situations and outcomes that a player generally wouldn't follow under different circumstances.

I'd have to wholeheartedly disagree, for the same reasons as Frodo.
Firstly, the Bethesda games have never really been all about realism and hardcoe, and it was only in Fallout 3 that they introduced those elements in full.
And 'not having to put yourself in a life/death situation'?. Please. As if that would be fun. Video games are there so I CAN go and fight a giant spider, without worrying about my own life.
Seriously, having one life would deter me from ever having fun in my game, as I would be way to cautious and careful, and when I did eventually die, I'm sure frustration and grief would associate with the loss. Imagine having this awesome character that you're having so much fun with, only to have him taken away? It would depress me. You may struggle to get back into the game in the same way again.

Again, this is purely subjective. I never said anything about realism, but TES games, especially pre-Oblivion have always been complex and very thorough in their mechanics. TES has never been what I would consider a "simplistic" RPG, which is really one of the main elements of appeal for me ever since Morrowind.

It really is all in how one actually plays the game. Just think about how gratifying a dragon fight might actually be if you were to defeat a dragon, knowing you only have one life? Players should also know their limits and abilities, so likely it wouldn't take people very long to adapt to the conditions of a permadeath system. Again, this would be purely optional, and for those willing to have a more challenging experience that would have a completely different feel from the other difficulty levels.

Complex and deep != hardcoe. In fact they have nothing at all to do with each other. TES does not feature any sort of required eating or sleeping mechanic, your character tends to start out with some decent gear or funds from the get-go, and either everything's only as strong as you in the beginning (Oblivion) or you become a demi-god after a dozen hours of gameplay (Morrowind). Diseases have been nothing but nerfed since Daggerfall (where they could kill you). Probably the worst thing an enemy can do to you is damage your attributes, which are just a pain to heal and little else.

Name a few things you think are hardcoe in TES.


Indeed. Which is why I'd rather they not spend time developing a save nuker mode for the minority of players who would use it, when saves can be easily nuked by the players themselves. I won't enjoy it, and you can do it on your own.


I don't need perma-death to tell me not to rush a TES game. And I don't see how it could possibly add longevity to a character, when that character gets deleted as soon as you wander into a hard dungeon prematurely.


Yes. "I better not enter any dungeons until I'm level 30. I wouldn't want to lose my save files." Fun!


Like what, the nuking of a save file?

It depends on how you interpret what hardcoe is. However, this is completely irrelevant to the topic... If you want a topic about that, feel free to make one.

You can say that, but there would be no benefit to the player to just "do it." BGS would have to give those willing to do it incentive, and wanting to actually complete the challenge. It's like eating, drinking, and sleeping in BGS games. You can choose to do them, but unless there is an actual incentive to take advantage of them, you won't.

The likelihood of wandering into a hard dungeon probably isn't likely, as one is likely to come across harder NPCs before they get to such a section of the map.

Sarcasm aside, as I stated before, this isn't a system for everyone, hence "hardcoe." I would expect most to not even meddle with such a mechanic. But that doesn't meant that BGS couldn't easily implement something in to give those that would actually like the challenge.

Like if you are in a hall surrounded by Dark Brotherhood assassins and decide to throw a fireball at one of them for kicks... Players will actually have to show restraint and rationale in what they do. I guarantee you playing Skyrim with permadeath would be completely different from playing without it, and not because it's "frustrating." It would offer a gaming experience few have actually experienced, and would be there for those willing to make the risk. It is hardcoe for a reason.