This'll be my first post in this board, so please bear with me if it is not up to your usual standards.

Basically my query is: is it generally accepted that argonians can mate with and bear offspring with the other races?

Having spent some time reading into this (and indeed, reading previous threads about it), I was wondering what the general consensus was. It is clearly not entirely conclusive in lore whether or not argonians can mate with others (as perhaps is highlighted by their differing physiology), but I'm not sure whether this necessarily would mean that it would be beyond reason for a half-breed to be born.

It is more generally accepted that, say, a khajiit might mate with an imperial or elf than an argonian, despite that khajiit also have differing physiology. That being said, they are perhaps closer than an argonian and a breton might be, at least both being mammalian. The fact that khajiit are both quadripedal and bipedal, and the existence of the ohmes (who are, I think, supposed to be nearly indistinguishable from bosmer- except for fur???) could be construed as evidence of an ability to interbreed.

There is little known about the other species of argonian, however, and there are no clearly documented cases of them being able to mate with the other humanoids, whether in ancient history or present day.

But the arguments against are somewhat lessened when we take into consideration the tscaesi, which (I believe) are recorded to have commingled somewhat with the imperial race. (that some imperial families still have tsaeci features even now...)

Now, I am not certain, but judging upon appearances I would say that tsaeci are probably more physiologically different to men than argonians are, or at least that they are comparable. If tscaeci could mate with men, is it unreasonable to assume that argonians could?


I am honestly looking for an answer here, or at the very least what the general consensus on this issue is. Any comments would be very much appreciated.

It's been the consensus over the years that the Argonians are the only race in Tamriel that cannot breed with another race, and possibly can't even have intercourse with the other races; too different anatomically. I've followed Allerleirauh's lead on this, but it seems the likeliest answer.

If I remember right, there are remaining Akaviri traits in some Imperials, but they're Asian features instead of Tsaesci characteristics.

Argonians lay eggs, from what I've heard. The other races are placental mammals. I agree. Physiological differences make this very unlikely without the aid of some unknown type of magicka, which we haven't seen or heard of before. In other words, it's a bit of a stretch, and I doubt it's ever gonna happen.

On the other hand, Akaviri is a little more believeable. I'm not saying the Tsaesci could breed with a mammalian creature, but not all snakes lay eggs. Rattle snakes give live birth. Once again, the physiology is different, so science-wise, no, but this is a world of magick and stranger things have happened. I do agree with you however, that the Akaviri blood is in the form of Akaviri men, and not Akaviri snake-men.

*looks embarrassed* I was under the impression that it was the tscaeci that had the most to do with Cyrodiil. Apologies for this mistake.

http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/notes_racial_phylogeny.shtml is probably the most up-to-date scholarly consensus we have, but it has recieved its due share criticism.

Yes, it's true, but there has been a lot of debate on whether the Tsaesci could in fact be human. That is a bit unlikely, though, but at least we know that there has existed men in Akavir, and considering that one could assume that the Tsaesci might have used them as slaves and soldiers.
At least, it would be one explanation both for the Akaviri traits of the Imperials as well as those "Tsaesci" skeletons in Oblivion (which is most probably budget and game mechanics, anyway).

And don't worry about your OP. It is definitly over the standard of most stuff posted around here. :foodndrink:

Well in http://www.imperial-library.info/obbooks/sebookfallofvitharn.shtml there is a case of an Imperial and Argonian having a child, but this could be from the doings of Sheogorath for his ammusemant or it never really happened. I say this because a crazy could of wrote the book, and of the fact that the kid dissapered when he was twenty.

I'm not a lore buff whatsoever, and I have seen that it's generally suspected that Argonians cannot reproduce with other races, but that isn't to say that there isn't evidence supporting the possibility of it being possible.

As stated, there was the Vitharn record, which may be somewhat...unreliable, being from Sheogorath's realm, but you never know, a lot of what is said appears to be literal, in some way.

I'm no expert on reptiles, but I did a little research on how they reproduce. They do have reproductive organs that are slightly similar to those of humans, more so on the males, it looks like, so actual intercourse is fairly certainly possible. Whether they are fertile with other races, we can't say. It's unlikely, but, though it should be taken with some skepticism, the Vitharn account can't be discarded.

In short, from what I've seen:
Intercourse- most likely possible.
Offspring- maybe, but probably unlikely. (Again, Vitharn)

:shrug:

They may lay eggs or they may give live birth. Live birth is supported by the females having briasts. Eggs are supported by Teinaava reffering to him and Ocheeva as "Egg Mates". Since they are twins they would have been born from the same egg. Also, he uses "hatchling" to refer to children. If they do lay eggs they may be either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovipary or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovoviviparity.

briasts =! live birth.

Examples:

Platapus, Echidna.


One thing to consider-- Eggs == cloaca.

Very true, but we also have to consider that this might have been unavoidable due to Oblivion's skeleton system watchamacallit. The same reason Khajiit and Argonians walk upright, may be why Argonian females have briasts. Daggerfall and Morrowind's Argonians did not have these.

Then again, Morrowind's Khajiit male didn't have a doodle, either.

It also may depend on the subspecies as well, for example one such sub-species that is found in the lands of Cyrodiil may for some anatomical reason have briasts and give birth to live young, whereas others will be giving birth to eggs.

But also when you take into account the whole Argonian's coming from the Hist, I think it would make it even more unlikely for an offspring to develop in the womb of the female Argonian. But there are even cases where females on Earth have given birth to goats and stuff after have intercourse with them =\

...What I don't get is why anyone would want to do the deed with a lizard...that's just freaky.

Well, in a world where there are many different races and you are raised amongst all of them, treating them as equals to yourself, it is not unreasonable that you might not consider it freaky. In Bravil (think it's Bravil) there is an argonian and khajiit couple. Since cats hate snakes, you'd think that wouldn't be a coupling you're likely to meet, but in this world they are both considered 'people' and thus the social division doesn't really exist.

I think it would be less likelu to be found in Morrowind, where the social divisions between beasts, mer and men are much more emphasised, between slavery and racism, but in Cyrodiil where that kind of thing is not tolerated, it is not unreasonable that one would develop romantic feelings for a member of another race.


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On another note, most of the sub-species of argonian are unknown. If we assume that the argonians that appear in Oblivion are a sub-species different to that of Morrowind (and perhaps similar to those of certain past games?) then we see that these argonians are much more alike to human physiology, at least superficially. Would it be wrong to assume that these argonians are more likely to be able to produce fertile offspring than those that appear in Morrowind?

EDIT:
I had previously read Notes on Racial Phylogeny, however, as a consensus, it is fairly unhelpful and although it does provide useful speculation, it doesn't actually make a decision, and is very brief.

Hmm, you do pose some intriguing concepts IN *strokes moustache* Can I ask why you're delving into the subject? Making a new story or RP me hopes

Sadly no. It's just something that has been bothering me for a while. As a rule, I always maintain that argonians cannot mate with the other races, but as far as lore goes this seems both unusual and unlikely. Whether or not they could produce children, you would think they could mate at the very least. Especially when you consider the Oblivion argonians.

Ah well Adding to what Tom said earlier about the whole, six = Yes, Babies = Unlikely, Game mechanics has to be entered into the equation. For Oblivion the Devs have reworked so many things, the looks of the Beast races (and the Bosmer, man did those guys look like freaks) at the bottom of the list, and scantily try to cover it up by stating they were different sub-species that for some reason only live in Cyrodiil?

So, I think what you could take away from this Illusionary, that while some people may choose to have intercourse with Argonians, it is unlikely that they have the compatibility as another inter-species relationship and it's even more rare for a human or mer to take an Argonian as a sixual partner, barring the Lusty Argonian Maid

Of course in matters like this I think you can have a bit of a creative licence and really believe what you want unless the Devs tell you otherwise

[Thread derailing]
As far as Crassius Curio goes (well, that can be quite far I admit), the emphasis is probably more on licence than on creative. Or maybe not, he's a playwright - even if not exactly a good one....
[/Thread derailing]

But to add to that, game mechanics are also what changed the races in Morrowind to look as they did, as they didn't orginally look like that. What it would be sensible to take into account, if we are playing the 'game mechanics' argument, is that whatever the reason, Oblivion has become a part of lore, and likely next game, even if the beast races change back to their original form, there will be an explanation as to why they made the change in the first place- most likely that it was another argonian sub-species.

So really, we should still take Oblivion's examples of argonians into account.

(NOTE: I really hope that was coherent...)

EDIT: And I am trying to find a reasonably well-founded consensus opinion rather than shatter the general opinion by doing what I want.

More importantly than the existence of their briasts is the simple question as to whether or not they have nipbles. The briast's supple shape is mainly cosmetic. LOL. Do they or do they not have teets? We'll never know because of the ESRB! LMAO.

Because they find them attractive. :hubbahubba:

For some reason, reading that made me fall off my chair laughing. I haven't slept in 20 hours, though, so I may be a little batty. XD

Lady Illusionary, I'm not sure how this works myself (Perhaps we could bug ArgonianMageZelric about it sometime? He might know more.) but I found http://www.imperial-library.info/fsg/brendanarticle1.shtml on Argonians on the IL, although it's by the Forums Scholar's Guild so I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for. That and I haven't read it cover to cover so to speak, so it may not have anything pertaining to this anyway.

I do know that Argonians, at least most variations, can have six with humans, mer and Khajiit. Thadon, Duke of Mania in the Shivering Isles had an Argonian chambermaid (I think that's her proper title) that it was pretty much flat-out said that he'd sixed. Although it's just a play, there's also The Lusty Argonian Maid.

I always figured that they were reproductively incompatible, though. And although I'm not sure, I think that the reason there were bewbs on the TES4 Argies was model laziness; they'd used the same female mesh for the men, mer and Khajiit, so why make a new one for the scalies? I wish they had, really, though. The reptilian digitigrade ones from Morrowind were awesome and the 'is it a mammal or a reptile?!' Argonians confused meh. As for the male Khajiit not having a doodle as Tom put it, I think that was to keep the T rating. (although oddly the females had fur-obscured briasts and no undies..)

I'm curious on this myself, though, so I'll be checking in to see what's unearthed. ^_^

EDIT: As for the question of who'd want an Argonian in bed, well, why does anyone have six with anyone beyond creating offspring? If an Argonian meant enough to someone and he/she had no qualms with the racial differences, then why not? Though I do admit having your lover being devoid of body heat when he/she is cuddled against you might be a bit odd. Also, the fact that, assuming that Argies cannot interbreed with mammalian races, female Argonians can't get accidentally impregnated by one out of her species, they might make good casual bedmates.

True, at least it would be more comfortable for the guy rather than wearing a leather condem (considering Tamriel's state of technology putting them in the Middle Ages roughly, that's what they used )

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, Zelric did make a post on TES Fiction all about Argonians on the Lore board, which he and some of the others may have posted, if it helps IN

That link was useful, Aula, because it showed all the different representations of argonians on one screen. As it happens, female argonians had briasts in everything but Morrowind, and were of a more 'human' shape in all but morrowind as well.

Which again makes me ask: are the argonians of morrowind just a different sub-species? Because in daggerfall and Arena, they hardly had trouble with graphic models. They've been given briasts deliberately.

I don't know why, because until I started looking into this, I decided I preferred the morrowind argonians and they would be the basis for my opinion, but lately I've become really intrigued by the differences between the argonians in all the different games, and especially by the possibility of a half-breed. I'd very much like to read Zelric's post, so I'll have a search.

EDIT: I can't find Zelric's post. Not easily, anyway.

I always disregarded the difference between Argonian appearences as simply game mechanics (well, rather game design) - not lore based changes. Is there actually any evidence for Argonians having sub species?

I consider that to be a non-statement. Where is the evidence that there is not different sub-species? Particularly considering that we must take the argonian appearances as more than simply game-mechanics. It would be wrong to assume that in a world created by the devs, they would allow any thing to be by mistake. If they had to change the argonian's appearance, they would make it a matter of lore, if only to cover themselves. If we are going to base our entire discussion on a world the devs have created, it would be foolish to disregard some of it simply because it doesn't make sense to us. TES has always been a work in progress, constantly building and growing, both in the world itself and in the lore.

Take for example the different appearances of the khajiit. It became a matter of lore.

Also, there has been heavy speculation (in almost all lore about argonians) about whether or not they have sub-species. It has also been emphasised that they are a mysterious people, and little is known about them and their homeland. To me, this stinks of leaving room for the devs to explain away the changes in argonian physiology.