Titus Mede II had to make a ballsy move when The Thalmor came to him demanding he surrender to them He could

• Accept immediately and probably cause a massive civil war throughout the Empire that could have brought it to a state of nonexistence
• Fight a war he knew he probably couldn't win, due to The Empire's already fractured state, but possibly keep The Empire together

He chose the war and eventually stalemated The Thalmor, and yes I say stalemated because after the Battle of the Red Ring both sides were terribly whipped and neither side had the ability to continue. At that point he had to make another REALLY hard choice, he could eaither

• Continue to fight a stalemated war for possibly years upon years until the point in which one sides people eventually crack under the pressue of it all and revolt possibly destroying both sides completely
• "Surrender" to The Thalmor and give The Empire the chance to rebuild so it can take on The Thalmor later with renewed vigor, with the consequence of a lot of his people hating him.

Now some would say he should have continued the fight but I must point out after the Battle of The Red Ring both armies were nearly annihilated and most of the cities in Cydroill were burning or had been destroyed, however The Thalmor's lands were by comparison in much better shape giving them an advantage in resources. Attacking into Valenwood or Elsweyr to get the Alinor, as attacking and taking Alinor would be the only way to get The Thalmor to fully stop, with Cyrdoill in its current state would have been disastrous and would have cost Titus Mede the rest of this soldiers and possibly The Empire, and there was simply no way to both rebuild Cyrodill and continue the fight through Valenwood and Elseywer at the same time. Now we get to the Hammerfell "betrayal". The Redguards of Hammerfell are steeped in a ancient tradition of fighting, to the point they literally destroyed their original homeland with it. The Empire's surrender would have been the most un-Redguard thing to do, and as such the Reguards continued to fight, as is their tradition, even after the war was "over". Their ways threatened Titus's plans to rebuild The Empire and so he had to let them go. Some might say him doing so was unfair, or that he was leaving them to death, but I must remind everyone here that The Redguards were known as the best fighters in all of Tamriel. I don't believe Titus "abandoned" them, in fact I think he knew very well they might drive The Thalmor from their lands and hoped they would. However while any progress against The Thalmor is appreciated the simple fact was that neither he nor the Reguards could take the fight to The Thalmor yet, nor could he fight them with Cyrodil in such a state, and that was what needed to happen to truly win. Furthermore I think Titus believed that once The Empire had rebuilt sufficiently and started the renewed attack against The Thalmor, that the Reguards, regardless of The Empire throwing them out would help them as a way to get revenge against how poorly the Thalmor treated The Redguards during the occupation. The Redguards may not like The Empire to the point they may never rejoin it, but they dislike The Thalmor more and that is what mattered. I believe Titus was willing to lose a province, permanently, but still have the possibility of them helping The Empire, to win the war. While Titus may have allowed the persecution of his people at the hands of the Thalmor due to the signing of the WGC, I do believe he knew WTF he was doing, and made many calculated moves to keep his [censored] together. Were may of them unfair? yes Were many of them unjust? yes However Ulfirc's cause only weakens both Skyrim and The Empire, his ideals can only result in a Thalmor gain, while it isn't fair that the worship of Talos is banned, I think they just need to sit down, Please continue, my good sir., and deal with if for a little while longer so they can get rid of it.

*clap clap* You just made me reload my save so i could join the imperials..

When i wrote that I was half alseep, and I really don't remember typing half of it, I recall putting in a large skyrim section similar to the Hammerfell one but I must have only imagined myself doing it.


But yeah to make my post shorter

Titus Mede is a dike, he made several dike moves, he threw out an entire province, he allowed a bunch of nazi-esque people to run around terrorizing his people, but it was either that OR have The Empire completely destroyed by a Empire wide civil war/continuing a stalemated war forever.

He isn't a dike! It is a brilliant plan in the long run!

It really doesn't matter that The Thalmor were just as hurting as the Empitre, accepting anything less then the terms of the WGC would have led to Thalmor refusal and it would have defaulted into Option 1.

The Thalmor are far to arrogant and prideful to ever accept a TRUE and fair negotiation.

but since the thalmor have no attack forces left, not making the WGC has the same effect as making it except no province gets pissed off. The Empire would actually be watching for troop movements, and be prepared for strike forces which given the altmer's slow breeding, would have to be inferior to the defense forces of the empire.

This means the empire would've still gotten resources from Hammerfell, AND the Civil War in Skyrim would not have happened in addition to be able to counter any further thalmor attack forces.

It really doesn't matter that The Thalmor were just as hurting as the Empitre, accepting anything less then the terms of the WGC would have led to Thalmor refusal and it would have defaulted into Option 1.

The Thalmor are far to arrogant and prideful to ever accept a TRUE and fair negotiation.

You're also signaling your enemy that you no longer have the will to fight them. That's not waving the white flag, that's lying down and asking them to roll over you. The Thalmor now have the golden opportunity to surveill the empire almost at will, and can plan when and where to attack. Information about your enemy is also highly valuable. The empire has none about the Thalmor, the Thalmor know everything about them or will soon if they don't already.

Evaluating the empire is about more than just one man. Do we know if Mede has an heir? I think he is willing to gamble all his provinces away because he is hoping to build a new dynasty on his own name even if it's a shrunken one, but really he does not have the mantle of the dragon blood and even before the Skyrim civil war, the empire was crumbling beneath his feet. The empire is finished, IMO, regardless of the outcome of TESV.

Hammerfell? the giant desert? That's like 95% desert? That lore states barely has any farm or anything besides ports? Most of whose ports at the time were under Thalmor control? I would love to know of these magical resources you speak of, Hammerfell doesn't have squat. Not to mention the fact at the time the Crowns and Forbearers were having thier own internal civil war and only got over it after the Empire let them go.

The Skyrim Civil war happened because of Thalmor manipulation of Ulfric, It would not be unreasonable to assume that they could have gotten someone else to do it for some other circumstances. the banning of Talos was not key to the cause of the rebellion, as most people though grudgingly accepted it and continued in secret, it was thalmor manipulation.

Secondly both The Thalmor and The Empire did have SOME forces left, they were just few in number and again as I pointed out accepting anything less then the WGC would have led to a endless Stalemated war which would have delayed the recovery of the Empire significantly.

That was part of the point of surrendering, to make The Thalmor think they really did win. It puts them off guard. Humans rebuild considerably faster then Mer.

About Mede's heir I personally think he let himself be killed so that someone else could take the throne. I doubt Mede believed that he, or anyone of his family, could ever re-gain the trust of the Empire's citizen enough to re-start the war to its fullest when the time was right. I say his death and a new emperor's crowning is exactly what he wanted as his endgame.

I think the Thalmor's problem with Talos is their general problem with men/humans. Talos represents an ascension or evolution they want for themselves. Same applies to Lorkhan/Shor. Those gods can't have any place of reverence without making Mer, Altmer at least, feel gypped, in the grand scheme of things. These are problems between the two races since the beginning of time, in TES terms. It's not even about Skyrim that much.

It's not so much that they want to be like Talos, but more Talos is the reason they can't do what they want.(Unmake the world, return to simply being Et'Ada)

Not quite. There wouldn't be any legitimacy of the uprising. "Why are you rebelling against the empire?" "No reason, just to rebel." The banning of Talos is what gave them a rallying point. Claiming he was manipulated by the Thalmor is only true insofar as the Thalmor engineered the WGC to provoke hostility from other provinces.

Unless the thalmor were foolishly sending suicidal forces into the Empire afterwards, there's no difference between WGC and nonWGC for the Empire's recovery. And I say foolish because the thalmor have troubles replenishing forces whereas mankind doesn't have that issue.

The Mede line isn't hereditary. Seems to be picked by the Council or possibly the previous empire. We know that Mede II isn't Mede I's son though.

Without the WGC, the empire would be in Valenwood already and possibly even in Alinor

"Don't ban Talos worship" is their rallying point, though the point that's conveniently overlooked was that people didn't stop worshipping Talos. The Thalmor knew the Concordat was doing diddly squat to stop Talos, so had to manipulate Ulfric into starting the civil war over it. If Ulfric hadn't started the civil war Talos worship would've continued, but now with the civil war Talos worship is being put under the spotlight (causing people who would've continued worshiping him into declaring they don't, like High Queen-to-be Elisif). And hell, Ulfric murdered the High King, who worshipped Talos, because he supported the Empire.

Both the Empire and the Thalmor know the Concordat isn't going to last, and there will be a second Great War. Starting a civil war over Talos worship actually did more harm to Talos worship than if it had been left alone. In the long run, it probably will all even out, but in the mean time Ulfric is causing internal damage to the forces that could otherwise combine against the Dominion.

Is there any proof that it's not hereditary? Attrebus was Titus I's son, but that doesn't mean Titus II can't be his (great-)grandson. It would be odd to have Emperor Titus Mede II who isn't a descendant of Emperor Titus Mede who started the current Empire.

Well, no. Once you start closing temples and disbanding priesthoods, you are weakening Talos worship.

It's not just over Talos worship- it is about the fact that the empire is only willing to take risks on Cyrodiil's behalf and is using its provinces as bargaining chips, then turning its back on them when it becomes convenient.

Although if you have to put your foot down somewhere, I think Talos ought to have been the place. If the empire will not stand behind even its own founder, what is it good for? You know how Belethor says "I'd even sell my sister if I had one"? That's Titus Mede, right there.