Black Marsh had dragons or dragon like creatures called the Wanamus. They had lightning for blood. One of them was called Haynekhtnameht, and one of his fangs was carved into a legendary dagger. Nords were known to fight them.

It also took a lot of nords and a week to kill it.

Why would nords go to black marsh to fight dragon like creatures? Seems kinda far away for them.

Before Skyrim, what little dragons that were around were under Imperial protection, and to slay them would carry an extremely harsh punishment. But here's what little of what is known

The Forest People could have been the original Aldmeri settlers of Valenwood and Elsweyr (before Nirn made it into a desert). The Bosmer arising from Y'ffre changing Aldmer into Bosmer, and Azura changing Aldmer into Khajiit. How else does one explain how the Bosmer came to be different in stature from there Altmer cousins?

Except the Forest People had no stable shape, or at least kept switching between elves, animals, trees, and everything in between. Only thing I oculd think of is maybe they were some kind of cursed Aldmer (they apparently had a habit of getting themselves cursed... Orsimer, Dunmer..).

That was my line of thought, though I had forgotten the transient nature of the Forest People. Somehow, this all seems connected to the Wild Hunt.

Mer do seem more sensitive to the conditions in which they live.

Indeed, just look at Maomer. Perhaps Meri racial inclination to magic makes them more susceptible to the Spiritus Loci.

Then why did Altmer, Chimer and Ayleids look so similar?

A modern system of taxonomy would classify them as such, yes. Their ancestors are elves, so they are in the elf "clade" regardless of what conclusions have been drawn based on morphology. Khajiit are elves in the same sense that birds are reptiles... they aren't, because the group "reptiles" is paraphyletic, and thus worthless to modern taxonomy. Similarly, the group "elves" is based entirely on morphology, not on ancestry... but even that's flawed, since several Khajiit castes do retain definitively elf-like traits.

Also remember, historically Orcs have also been excluded from the "elf" group, and for similar reasons.

No, I meant it in the way that the only evidence we have to believe the Khajiit even came from the Ehlnofey is Clanmother Ahnissi. Then we have more evidence disputing that. The Cat Demons were around when Topal the Pilot discovered Cyrodiil. So basically, they are probably as unrelated to Elves as the Argonians are.

And those Elf like traits you were talking about come from when Khajiit weren't cat people. They were just elves with tails. Back in ye olde games. They were retconned into cats, an then given that whole lunar connection to explain why the Khajiit in ye olde games looked like elves. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I like you, you understand phylogeny and cladistics. You understand that birds are dinosaurs, humans are apes are monkeys, etc. The thing is, though, is that you can't always apply real-world science to TES. Don't get me wrong, root out these boundaries to your heart's content, but don't be upset when reality does not coincide with myth.

phase changing khajiit is canon. Read 'Infernal City,' which Bethesda has outright said it is canon, as a good portion of the book deals with a roaming band of khajiit, with an Ohmes-Raht being the head and rides her Senche-Raht brother like a horse. Attrebus even recalls he has fought and trained with khajiit before, the more human looking ones.

Also, Clan Mother is the only thing we have that actually talks about how the khajiit came into being, with nothing else to contradict it currently. As such, khajiit are related to mer

More accurately, Khajiit are most probably related to mer. Some future source of information may totally debunk that idea, just like Morrowind debunked the idea that the Hist are just another kind of Argonian (thanks a lot, PGE).

lol @ you telling me it's canon. I never said it wasn't. I just attempted to explain why it was canon, how it came to be.


And what about Topal the Pilot? The Khajiit were around back then... and I'm 99% sure it's not a case of mistaken identity as it was with the orcs. In Mora's quest, you don't collect cat blood, but you still collect Orc and Falmer blood. So if they are related to men and mer more than the Argonians, it's because they came from Ehlnofey, and originated at around the same time as Aldmer. Though I think they have the same origins as the Ka Po Tun, whatever they may be.

Human kind is also related to mer, but you don't collect human blood either. My point being, everyone, but the argonians, came from a common lineage.

My point being that we don't know for sure if they came from Ehlnofey. It's possible. But they sure didn't come from Aldmer or Bosmer.

They didn't come from Altmer or Bosmer, but they may have came from Aldmer.

Then they would be Catmer. Unless they were changed so much that they no longer count as elves. But I suppose it is possible. Topal the Pilot saw them quite a bit, and they seemed more savage and feral. They could have been a few extremely early Aldmer settlers who somehow managed to morph into what they are now.

Maybe there were jungle cats and wild tribal mainland Aldmer, and they were fused together at some point for some reason. That would change them enough to no longer be mer.

It completely matters on what you think counts. For example, most people in Tamriel don't consider the Khajiit as elves. Instead, they're betmer, or beastfolk. But we (and knowledgable scholars of Tamriel) understand them to have been descended from early Aldmer. With that knowledge, I would consider them elves (or, at least, elvish relatives). Its worth noting that in Herma-Mora's Skyrim quest, you aren't required to obtain Khajiit blood. Only Orsimer, Falmer, Dunmer, Altmer, and Bosmer blood. He may not consider them close enough relatives to the Dwemer to matter. But then again, like many people in Tamriel, Septimus may not be aware of their kinship with the elves.


I wouldn't trust Topal's accounts too much. Like many real-life explorerers, his perspective as a explorer deeply distorts his observations. Like real-life explorers, anything he came across that was very different from his own culture would have shocked him. Hence many explorer accounts describe natives as savages, when nowadays anthropologists know they clearly weren't. I also recall that Torval mentioned bird men living along the Niben, and is the only source that we know of that mentions such bird men. Its quite possible that he only saw early Nibenean people, dressed in ceremonial feathered dress, and just let his imagination run wild.


Not settlers, natives. Most lore forum goers now recognize that Tamriel was the native homeland of all the races. Atmora, Altmora, Yokuda, Akavir...these places were settled by the Elhnofey leaving Tamriel in ancient times. But not all Elhnofey left, of course. Some stayed, and became the ancestors of the Nibeneans, Bretons, Bosmer, Khajiit, and possibly the Argonians. The Nords, Redguards, Altmer...these are groups whose ancestors had once left Tamriel, but later returned to conquer it as a new land.

You say the Khajiit are elves like it's a known fact.

Septimus was a devout follower of Hermaeus Mora and a scholar. You don't give him enough credit.

And Topal was mentally handicapped? He was up close to the "Bird Men", he talked to them and stayed with them for months. There's no mistake there. The bipedal Cat Demons he saw on the shores followed him for quite a while too. Days if I'm not mistaken. How many bipedal "cat demons" are there? And yes, they were feral (or at least very hostile). They were trying to attack his ship.

Also, I'm sure all elves come from Aldmer. Bosmer are no different.

Argonians don't come from Ehlnofey. They come from the Hist.


And so you lectured me on the basics, and there were flaws.

There is no evidence (as far as I know) that khajiit are elves, just that they were once elves. The evidence that suggests they were once elves also says it was Azura who changed them, which would explain such a massive change as that which seems to have taken place. Azura does seem to like personalising mortals.

But yeah, we don't know for sure. If you don't like that idea feel free to explore others but adamant refusal of a popular theory because you just don't like it is annoying as all hell.

- I don't think that's what happened = Good
- You're wrong = Bad

I've got a personal preference for shaping of argonian individualism. Trauma to a Hist is localized to one argonian. This develops a human self before sundering their bond, which can't really be called a bond, because there is no intellect apart from the hatchery, until the humanization.

I like it, because it works with We Ate it to Become It. Do what you want with it.