Wow, thanks for clearing that up for me
I reeeeally want to read the book.

I suppose the question is though: why would it need to separate? Are most of the hist less willing to sacrifice the argonian's to the apocalyptic hell of the week or what?

Interesting.

After reading a bit into the relationship between the Hist and the argonian, I found a quote (from the UESP) that might make some connection. " Gary Noonan provides a description of the Argonians as being similar to the Khajiit, and varying from a nearly human to a completely lizardlike race much like the Khajiit vary from a nearly human to an entirely catlike race, depending on how many times "they decide to lick the tree". " --- would this mean that the more a Hist tree is licked, the more lizard-like they become? If so, this might explain the differences between the Morrowind Argonians and the Cyrodiilic Argonians. The Argonians from Cyrodiil, there mainly through immigration, possess more human-like features. I believe this applies to the idea of a hivemind (or, at least, the susceptibility to the psychic power of the Hist tree) where those argonians who lick the Hist tree are further tied to it and, henceforth, "dumbed-down", per-se.

The strains of argonian, located deeper in the marsh, support this idea (also found from the UESP)

" Agacephs: Most have needle-like faces and vary in color from bright green to orange. They live in the inner part of Argonia, near the Hist.
Paatru: Described as "toad-like," they live in the inner part of Argonia.
Sarpa: Described as being "winged", though it's unclear if this is meant literally or not. They live in the interior of Argonia. "

And Argonians, found closer to the other continents, hold a more individualistic personality.

" Archeins: During the time when other races tried to put plantations in Argonia, Archeins were very powerful. They made most of their money by selling other Argonians into slavery. Since the other races realized Argonia is unfit for plantations, they have gone bankrupt. "

But this theory of mine hits a bit of a bump concerning the last strain mentioned in the UESP:

" Nagas: They are described as having "huge mouths filled with dripping needle-like fangs". They are usually seven to eight feet tall. They also appear to be more snake-like than other Argonians. When the other races were attempting to put plantations into Argonia, they generally acted as highway men, robbing passing caravans; however, since the other races ceased trying to put plantations in Argonia, they have left the roads and have gone back into the inner swamps. "

So, would this mean that there is still some sense of individualism to Argonians deeper in the Marshes?

Also, what about playing as Argonians in the TES games? Since they have generally been more human-like features (and the assumption can be made that they live outside of the Black Marsh), would that support my theory?

---


Holy crap, I did not realize how much I put into that post! -.-;

I think folks are sorta avoiding your question - what the dev-stuff 'hints' indicate (maybe states?) is that the Hist change Argonians. We know that both Hist and Argonians are intelligent.

If Argonians were not born or were born unintelligent then that would be in the Lore in-game and clear because neither the Dunmer nor the Imperials could avoid noticing that. It would be just too important to ignore or pass by. So we are left with more subtle possibilities.

Knowing that the Hist had a civilisation - an Empire of their own we can see them as not only intelligent but also manipulative - either directly and/or through their agents - that is where I see the Argonians coming in.

The how of such a thing is totally open to speculation until the Devs pronounce so my concept is that the Hist Sap changes Argonians in ways that Hist find desireable and once the Hist have done this Argonians in their own society become elligible for marriage - however outside Hist regions of influence argonians being self-motivated, intelligent beings, complete in themselve sca live and reproduce as they please.

I have ideas about Hist - come visit the Provincial Library at The Wormhole (linky in my sig) if you like.

About the size of the Hist and other connections - please do not confuse Hist with Graht Oaks = see Dance in the fire re the mile high City of Falinesti - sometime described as the Capital of Valenwood.

I have a Dawntime story about a possible connection between Hist and Graht Oaks ... likely a fiction - honest! Thing is that the Great Spirits of the Dawn appear to have been trapped in the Grey Maybe = Nirn and I feel that they were not only trapped in the sense that they could not extricate themselves, but they were also bound by the nature of the Grey Maybe to conform to certain of its lawsto a great extent.

Those spirits seem to have been both immortal and amorphous - so something (perhaps their own lack of understanding about what they were getting into and letting themselves in for when they entered the Grey Maybe) seems to have forced them to take on likenesses of the forms that already existed in the Grey Maybe - so it may be that mer are spirit-parts that took on man-like forms and Hist took on the form of Graht Oaks - or the other way around - depends where they first originated eh?


NB (small print) Please don't misread this mix of fact and speculation - the speculation has qualifiers like 'perhaps' and 'maybe' to indicate that I am trying to draw conclusions from incomplete material - and that's where you are left. Because the fact is that the Elder Scrolls are alive and changing! Only 'stop' is dead. So there is always more :icecream:

Hm. Are you saying that the Argonians are essentially Mer, who became tainted (through lack of a better word) by the Hist's effects? If so, would that mean that the tradition of licking the plant causes the argonian population to join minds (again, through lack of any better word) with the Hist?

That leads me to a new question. What would happen if an Argonian didn't lick the hist, as per tradition?

According to one bit I just reread, the Argonians view the Hist as their afterlife, and it sounds a lot like the Dreamsleeve and the Sumps. The soul is collected and recycled anew with very little retained between. Just thought I'd mention it.

I think licking the hist is more a ritual nowadays. I guess in the earlyiest days of the Argonians it was what actually made them what they are today but over a time of several generations, each ingested the hist sap which slowly "mutated" them, the next generation inherited those changes until they where at the point they are now.
It's likely that licking the hist is just a tradition to become a TRUE argonian to them. Plus it could actually have physical effects on them.

I kinda doubt it alters their bodies really, i don't think all Argonians we saw in Morrowind originated from Black Marsh and all we saw in Oblivion where exclusively born outside (the design was actually more a, well, design question [or lazyness]) but it could, as mentioned before, be something like a growth hormone. So licking it kinda makes them grow up faster.

I guess that sounds pretty logical. That one argonian farmer woman in MW did mention she lick the hist before the ritual, and as such 'grew up' before anyone else.

The novel does indeed suggest that licking the Hist binds the Argonians to the tree(s). But I think that it works in reverse. they start out lizard-like and the more they lick, the more they become anthropomorphic.

-It is shown that Topal the Pilot encountered Argonians (or Argonian like creatures) in Central Cyrodiil, so they were much more widespread than they are now, which would indicate them being a race of their own. But it is concievable that migrating elves (like the Chimer for instance... wouldn't that be a fun twist of history and racism?) could've become the Lizard-Folk we see now.

That would make sense in terms of the Hist binding argonians to them and 'having a purpose' to this - re using them as go-betweens with Cyrodiil. If you see the Hist as highly aware - that psychic bit that was quoted makes sense (though I think there may well be more to come on Hist abilities) - and if capable of deciding on genocide then they are politically aware. It might explain Imperial policy on the 'beast races' as having been affected by Argonian appearance in their province as contrasted to Argonians kidnapped and enslaved from Argonia/BM.

Another interesting question is what time scale do Hist different methods work on? And again how do they work - is it morphology though magica, chemical or genetic engineering? Plus the underlying question as to their sense of time and goal-oriented imperatives. Which is the driving force?

Are the Hist part of the Spirit/mer event or do they even have anything in common with the et'Ada? Really speculative there. We seem to be approaching questions of Cosmology with similar races appearing on different PLANEts and dimensions (the giant goblins of legend) that themselves likely have underlying principals.

Re the book - well clearly it's important, but its not the game - we will have to see how things pan out in the next release. That was mooted to be Skyrim - but if this book really kicks off? Black Marshes draws closer.

Or it could be because Black Marsh (and Summerset Isle to a lesser extent) have been the least fleshed out of the provinces and they decided to give it some TLC. I've long since given up on Summerset, resigning myself to essentially wrap them in an enigma.

Here's another thought too: Did the City-Tree separate itself in order to purge the foreign taint, or was it cut off by the others? If the latter, then why?

Is it possible that the Hist once spread much deeper into the heart of Cyrodill, but that Tiber Septim's wintery Thuum that changed the climate killed or drove them off to Black Marsh?

Actually the war between elves and men in the dawn caused a lot of the Hist to retreat into what is now Black Marsh. There were lots of land sinking going on, apparently. And the Hist don't seem to like traveling, or moving.

It's not impossible for them to move however, as we learn in a certain Oblivion quest..

But that Hist was tainted. It had gone very bad. It was no longer connected to the Deep Roots and was sustained by Technomancy.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's possible that the root system of the Hist extended across all of Tamriel at one point, or at least into the former jungle of Cyrodill, but that constant wars and differing belief systems destroyed and pushed the edges of that forest back out of Cyrodill and other nations.

Didn't say it was impossible, they just don't seem to like to travel.

And yes, the Hist at one point did seem to cover the continents of Nirn and seemed to actually have been the first intelligent live on Nirn, but in the ages of the Dawn (or somewhere around there), the war between mer and men caused massive amounts of destruction everywhere, and the Hist were driven to what is now Black Marsh, despite being only spectators to the conflict.

Here's what I've been looking for:

It's all starting to come together then, isn't it?

The reason the Hist cooperate with the Infernal City, that is. The destruction of men, mer and "tainted" Argonians would benefit the rise of a new Hist jungle.

Ding.

And so, my last question. Would Argonians born outside of the marsh (aka, Oblivion Argonians) be immune to the psychic allure of the Hist?

no. they would be drawn into the power of the hist through their blood: if they weren't then they's just be big lizzards.

* Note - we have encountered no lizards in the areas we have seen of Cyrodiil, Morrowind, High Rock and Hammerfell - and I have not heard of any in Arena ...

So Don't forget this has a good point there. It looks (to me) like the Hist have been 'engineering' the Argonians for thousands of years through their sap and likely other means. See * above - it seems that the Argonians started out as Argonians. We can surmise that the Hist have been adapting and manipulating them for thousands of years. that would hae to include adaptions to make them receptive to Hist 'techniques' whatever they are. Given that the Hist had a Vast Empire greater than and including current Tamriel, before the warring et'Ada and Nords/humans rampaged through, you cannot reasonably expect to find 'virgin' or immune Argonians on the continent - unless in organised and hidden enclave/s.

There are other continents and we will learn more of them in due course!

Hist Empire?
Do like.

There's one thing in the book that makes me quirk a brow.

At one point

This actually brings me to another question.

It was burnt to the ground, along with the rest of the basemant.

I speak before the Company was destroyed

However, it was defiled and perverted. The argonians running the BWC and the ones engineering it didn't seemed that concerned about fleeing to BM.

You haven't answered the question;

Wouldn't the Argonians have heard it, just as they listen to the Hist in the Black Marsh?