Those are tribes formed from being in different parts of the Black Marsh. They do not change shape, the Nagas do not turn into Agacephs, they were both already around. An important distinction from Khajiit tribes is that it seems to depend more on Hist and other outside influences. And as to why they changed from Morrowind to Oblivion is game mechanics poorly explained that all the Vvardenfell Argonians were of the same tribe.

Thread too active! Too many ninjas!!!

And Argonians are related to the Hist, proof positive, in their Hist licking advlthood ritual. That doesn't happen to anything else when they lick Hist. Also, they worship it as their creator and I think they would know, being they can probably communicate with each other.

Aww, go easy on ToppDogg, he is simply confused at the poor game mechanics. I didn't know what the deal was for at least six months of being on the forum, and I still hardly understand how Oblivion BSed that so badly.

Same here, I'll agree to disagree. From my point of view, there's no truly conclusive evidence that the Argonians are biologically related to the Hist (if there were, you guys would have railroaded me out of the thread a page ago), so the issue remains unresolved.

I believe it's mostly in-game Morrowind dialogue from Argonians, but there is probably at least one book.

ninjad.

All this time I thought that argonian slaves in vvardenfell we not evolved yet and the ones in cyrodill were in the "next state" of evolutuon?!

But your saying that its just game mechanism?

Hmm.....

because argonians changed legs in the 6 years between the games?

you should really add "trolling" to your signature.

Hell, this is familliar, isn't it?

Well, I basically hold with it just being mechanics myself, but if there were something new in the next game that put out a full explanation, for example, more character dialogue from Argonians about it, then I'd probably go with that, since there are Argonian tribes that all look somewhat different, no ruling out that it's like the Suthay-Raht in Morrowind, there are more, but only these kinds appear here.

Have you refined the argument to 'biologically related?' Because a significant, basic connection of some sort is clearly and obviously implied. Implications can be ignored by sufficient obstinacy, or course. There is no proof that Rufio was assassinated as revenge for [censored] and murder, after all.

Yes, I have refined the argument to "biologically related." Why? Because "significant, basic connection" is extremely ambiguous and wildly open to interpretation, as has become quite obvious over the course of this thread.

This thread is subtitled, "Could they be a dragon kin?" In my mind (and in the dictionary), "kin" means a group that shares common ancestry.

The problem is, no one wants me to use words like "genetics" or "biology" or anything of that nature. Which makes this a very difficult discussion to have, because the words we're using apparently aren't allowed to be traced to their English roots.

You claim that "significant, basic connection" = "kin." Okay, but then how are you defining "kin" in this case?

"No u frist!"

You dirty apologetic boy. I bet you sat there and watched as he took advantage of all those poor kids added by Children of Morrowind.

The nature of the Argonians and Hist is extremely ambiguous. They are a mystery.

Dragons are divine. The Ehlnofey are descended from or created by the divine. The Hist have separate origins. So the answer to the OP is no.

We cannot assume that those sciences (in their entirety, as we know them) apply to the beings in question.


Well, I never did.

I think the vague connections make some sort of kinship a relatively good bet, but we don't have enough information to specifically 'define' anything. We don't, for example, know that Argonians exclusively lay eggs and reproduce like reptiles.

I recall reading somewhere (mm, Morrowind description for Argonians, I think), that argonians go through two phases, a male and female phase. Which is pretty darn cool, if you ask me.

In any case, I do apologize to anyone whose feathers I've ruffled in this thread. I love to argue, I often come off as an arrogant [censored] while arguing, and I do tend to get carried away.

And if it's any consolation, the OP's latest arguments don't make any sense to me, either. :shrug:

I think the problem with this discussion is in the usage of the word "descendant". While you, Vainglorious, use it in the sense of biological reproduction or evolution, in TES it often means that the creatures in question were directly created by their, presumably divine, ancestors. So when people say that Argonians might be descendants of the Hist, it doesn't necessarily mean they think that the Argonians are plants of some kind; it means that they think the Hist might have created the Argonians like the Aedra have created the Mer. While I agree that it makes little sense to say Argonians are plants, the assumption that they were made by the Hist isn't at all that far-fetched (while in truth remaining just an assumption).

Actually, having seen it worded that way, I can now begin to truly understand where people on the "other side" of this argument are coming from.

If the Hist are divine beings of some caliber (and this is a reasonable assumption, since they are worshipped by the Argonians [an homage mortals don't usually bestow upon other mortals]), then it is therefore a logical conclusion that the Hist are the creators of the Argonians, in the same way that the Aedra are the creators of the mer (as you already mentioned above). However, as you say, this still does require assumption, since it is never explicitly stated anywhere in the lore.

As well, it is still unclear in the lore whether the Hist are powerful enough to create a race of living beings, and related to that, it's also not clear whether the lore regards the Hist as actual "divine beings." It's still quite possible that, worshiped or no, the Hist are not divine and do not possess powers of creation. From everything I've read, this issue has yet to be fleshed out, which is a real shame since I'm now extremely interested to know the truth.

http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/anuad.shtml


Question: are the Ehlnofey are the Aedra that gave themselves to Nirn? What does that make the Hist?

What's everyone's take on http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/marobar02.shtml? The "publisher's note" doesn't seem to dispute the presentation of Argonians and the Hist.

The Hist are the Other kind of being that we don't know anything about. The Ehlnofey of both stripes are explicitly Aedric, even though men revere Lorkhan. The Hist, on the other hand, are associated with Sithis, so perhaps this is a clue.

The Seed is mostly fiction, IIRC.

But the message is still pretty clear, destroying the hist are more important to the argonians than even themselves. I know I read somewhere that the argonians have said that their lives don't really matter, since they can make another. However, if a hist is destroyed, you have essentially destroyed everything and can't be brought back.

Which would make sense, I suppose, if the Hist are being not native to Nirn or something. You know, like they don't really belong on the Mundus, they just kinda got trapped there? I don't know... *frustrated* I'm not sure how to articulate my thoughts. It is like, they are foreign to Nirn. They don't re-grow. They don't go through the Dreamsleeve.

Just reread it. It's an Argonian story about slavery that everyone's favorite hack ripped off and transplanted. So it is likely an accurate presentation of Argonian beliefs, yes.

And the Hist are actually portrayed as the most native and organic life on Mundus, rather than a strange visitor.

But while being the most native species in Nirn, they are also the most alien. I hope we get some insight into argonians and the hist in the next game.

Oddly, in The Annotated Annuad the Ehlnofey are described as the ancestors of Mer and Men, while the Hist are simply described as the "trees of Argonia." Considering the context of the paragraph, if the Hist in fact actually created the Argonians, it would have made sense to include that information in the text. In fact, there's no mention of the Argonians at all, perhaps a meaningful omission.

The Hist may have been part of that early Nirn, but that may simply mean that they're ancient, primordial, immortal (unless somehow destroyed) and magical. The mystery is yet to be solved.

Of course, something or someone certainly created the Argonians. Since we can safely assume this was a magical origin, and not a scientific one, the Hist are as good a candidate is any. But in truth, we still do not know the precise nature of the Hist, what they are capable of, or whether they explicitly did create the Argonians.

Nevertheless, the circumstantial evidence is extremely compelling, if only because of the question: "If the Hist did not create the Argonians, then who did?"

I would posit that the Hist don't need to be divine to effectively be the creators of the Argonians. The Dwemer were able to create a god, and they were mortals. Granted, they did so with the Heart of Lorkhan (a divine artifact), but is it also not stated/believed that the tower (something of divine significance) in Argonia is a Hist tree? The Hist themselves may not be divine, but at least one of them may have divine influence.

As well, being the "creators" of Argonians doesn't necessarily imply creating life. For all we know, a couple of Hist somehow metamorphosed some common lizards into humanoid beings, and they reproduced to create what is now Argonian society. If the Hist created the Argonians as a defense against men and mer, an approach like this would make sense, and not require divine intervention.

Just my 2 cents on the subject..

I like this thread, it's a good example of how things work here.

I think we've established that despite the reptillian look, Argonians are not related to dragons andy more than an Altmer or Imperial. However, what we know about the hist is not a lot. In Oblivion, removing the Hist from Argonia caused it to sicken, either accidentally or as a consious choice by the tree it/him/herself, and poison those who used it's sap. So do they have a link with the land? maybe, or it could have poisoned itself in a rage over being used by mere mortals.

Basically, unless we get TESAII or TESV: Argonia, we don't know enough about the Hist or really Argonians yet to figure this out.

PS: if the Hist are an Argonian equivalent of a Tower, then they have an organic meta for a Tower. falinesti can svck it. Screw you wood elves ;p

Aren't the continents on Nirn from those 12 worlds that got blown up or something? If so, then the Hist might not survive being transplanted to a different-world shard...

We have giant stompy-robots causing time-distortions, cats giving birth to your grandpa, and crazy Bosmer falling from the sky. Is it truly so far-fetched that Argonians are related to the Hist, then?