Well If you think about it, argonians could actually look like a dragon folk. I mean, they have a red-black-or-green scale skin and lizzard like eyes like dragons. We do know that the argonians can change shape and the lore in TES universe tells us that the dragons can take human shape so maybe argonians are descendet from dragons and are in human shape to hide there extistence.


Or maybe Im just wrong.......well think about it a bit.

Argonians seem remarkably like Lizardfolk from Dungeons & Dragons. I don't think they were intended to be like dragons.

Argonians and Hist are supposedly from an entirely different sphere than the rest of Nirn, but they aren't related to dragons.

Entirely possible, but highly unlikely. If they were, then they would be the heavily evolved version of an offshoot of dragons that moved into the Black Marsh and stopped flying, producing smaller and smaller offspring, lost the ability to spew fire, etc. Dragons supposedly died out after being forced out of Vvardenfell by cliffracers, moving into Cyrodiil until they somehow became extinct. However, I find Argonians to be more like crocodiles, myself.

I like how M'aiq says it: "Dragons? Oh, they're everywhere! You must fly very high to see most of them, though. The ones nearer the ground are very hard to see, being invisible."

So, as you see, it is doubtful that Argonians evolved from dragons, being dragons still largely exist

they may have the SLIGHTEST (!!!!!) Trace in them, but it is all but gone due to reproducing with other races, thus emliminating it slowly

Dragons are usually associated with the divine. The Hist are not.

I believe the Argonians to be the result of Hist genetic engineering... or the closest Nirnian thing to it, at any rate.

Sorry to stray off-topic, as most helpful information has already been contributed. But Dragons are not extinct. They allegedly remain in Akavir, enslaved by the Tsaesci. Dragons still dwelt in Tamriel during the Third Era, as well, despite being driven from Red Mountain (the majority's dwelling) by the Cliff Racers. Many hide in the mountains of Cyrodiil, under protection from the empire (being a sacred symbol, they are not willing to let the great race die). The Empire has been known to call these dragons to battle to repay the price of their protection, Nafaalilargus was a dragon who aided in Tiber Septim's conquest of Hammerfell. It is possible that Wild Dragons still exist in Tamriel, but they would have to be well-hidden.
Also, small, mostly-pink hued, fire-breathing 'dragonlings' have been known to inhabit the lands of High Rock, whether these are the immature offspring of possible wild dragons, or a lesser subspecies is unknown.

No, the Argonians have no relation to dragons. They are some odd spawn/mutation/off-shoot/thing from the Hist, which themselves are so strange it's better to not think about it.

If Argonians are in human form, something went wrong.

Less dragon, more tree.

Heh, depending on what interpretation of shamanic imagery we're going with, the two aren't necessarily conceptually separate.

Dragons were forced out of Vvardenfell by cliff racers?

Now that is something I'd like to see on the silver screen. From what part of Elder Scrolls lore does that information originate from (a particular book, scroll, conversation, et cetera)?

lizard =/= dragon

They have scales, but that doesn't mean they are related.

Like how dinosaurs were not lizards, due to the fundamentally different skeletal structure and warm-bloodedness.

Dinosaurs weren't lizards, but they were reptiles ? warm-blooded or no ? and lizards were also reptiles. You can check that information at any paleontology site online.

Therefore, lizards and dinosaurs share a common ancestry, and lizards could accurately be labeled "dinosaur-kin" (and vice-versa). So your example isn't a very good one.

EDIT: nevermind...

Well, I imagine you're not particularly happy with being contradicted. My apologies.

It's a relevant point, however, since people keep mentioning the Hist as though the Argonians are either related to them, or genetically manipulated/created by them. Consider this entry from the UESP Wiki:



This seems to indicate that the Argonians probably weren't "created" or "engineered" by the Hist, nor are they a species of Hist.

A further excerpt:



"Deep connections" ≠ shared common ancestry or creation of the Argonians by the Hist. Assuming anything else is exactly that, assumption.

---------------------------------------------------

So in conclusion, it can be argued that Argonians and dragons do, in fact, share a common ancestry, or "kinship" if you will. Both species have scales, they have claws and spines, they have tails, they reproduce by laying eggs, and in many respects they look very similar. It would be a stretch to argue that they aren't related, given all the similarities. In this case, the real question is how far back in the history of Nirn the two races started to diverge.

Of course, given that this assumes an evolutionary viewpoint and that Nirn is a fictional, magical world with a pantheon of divine beings, it's impossible to say for sure.



There are thousands of species living in the real world whose ancestors are still alive today.

It's called divergent evolution: If part of a species migrates to another area of the globe (or some other, similar change), the displaced species may evolve significantly while the original species remains largely unchanged.

Nirn doesn't have evolution like earth does. Everything is "Intelligently Designed", any "evolution" is mostly (if not entirely) cultural. So Argonians were at some point of the Dawn dragons - but they were also roses and rocks.

there is absolutely no precedent to say that dragons evolved into argonians. there is however reference to the argonians being created from/by Hist. guess which one seems more plausible...

what are you quoting from btw?

What about magical experiments? Like Draconians in the Dragonlance universe?

As I mentioned in my post, I'm quoting from the UESP Wiki. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Hist

The first excerpt, in particular, explicitly states that the lore indicating Argonians were created from or by the Hist is erroneous; this is backed up by an official statement from Mark Nelson. Many posters in this thread seem to believe that the Argonians are "tree people" or were created by the Hist, but according to the article, such beliefs are based on faulty lore written by people who didn't know Elder Scrolls lore all that well.

As for the fact that Nirn is an "intelligent design" sort of setting, well, I already acknowledged that in my post.

But you're actually mistaken: There most certainly is precedent for evolution in Nirn. All mer descend from the Aldmer, a distinct species, who are now extinct.

UESP! dont, just dont. anyone can write anything there.

as i stated, such evolution is primarily cultural, not physical. the physical differences (dunmer's dark skin, bosmer's stature, orcs...) all resulted from divine actions based on the preceding cultural evolution.


more accurately, written before there was proper lore on most races. Even without this evidence, the argonian's deep link with the hist suggest an intimate connection, one that they do not share with dragons.

This is true, but then anyone can write anything on forums, too. There's a lot of speculation in this thread. The Wiki does quote sources, most of which can be cross-checked. I think I'll do that, and also look for the statement by Mark Nelson.

Regardless, I tend to disagree with anyone who thinks that the Argonians are related to the Hist, are a species of Hist, or that they were created by the Hist. They're clearly lizard-like creatures, not trees. It's more probable that lore has been misinterpreted over the years. Common belief among lore enthusiasts does not a fact create.

Don't be pompous. I just realized that starting a row over how "reptile" and "warm-blooded" are mutually exclusive would derail the thread.

Except that they aren't mutually exclusive. If you'd be so kind as to Google "are dinosaurs reptiles" and look at the previews for the first ten results, you'll see that I am correct.

You made a misleading statement that wasn't entirely based on scientific fact (because of the context), so I elaborated. It's not derailing the thread when someone presents an example that doesn't actually mean what it is intended to mean.

what one appears to be is often not related to what one actually is. This is a http://www.arkive.org/media/02/0203F94B-EC6F-41AD-B217-CF7BE64C250C/Presentation.Medium/photo.jpg, for example. Even the http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/files/senche_193.png are elves. Lorkhan is a scarab, and a plane[t], and Pelinal, and he is Corrupting Inexpressible Action. Again, this is a world of the divine, if http://www.travel-vancouver-island.com/data/media/3/resident-killer-whales_154.jpg in our world then surely the lizard folk can have some mythological origin related to sentient trees.

[edit] on reptiles...

googling "are dinosaurs reptiles" resulted in a bunch of results saying that they are.