Thats the thing though, atleast in my experience the survival/upkeep layer of 3/NV was extremely un-challenging, and although I appreciate it for roleplaying I can see why its gone because for many people it was more of a chore than a challenge.

Have you ever played the Stalker mod Misery? That is a example of how you can make a extremely challenging system of upkeep/survival elements, and also turn it into a very niche game that appeals to very few.

The reason Bethesda has been able to make so many millions is that their games appeal to so many different kinds of players. If we were to make a murderous difficulty level with survival stuff, it would drive off people who may be more interested in roleplaying or choices and consequences. Or drive off people interested in exploration, or any other kinds of players. Bethesda puts a lot of thought into their game, and people don't seem to realize that most everything we see is the result of years of intensive development and heavy thought.

one think is punish the PC for a actual reason no bc a bad mechanic on a game. I will punish u with death if u forget to carrie stink-pack. But punishing the PC bc the weapons break even if he have it a 100% at the star of the quest, and make him run back all the way is stupid.

Not at all. Obsidian made great improvements to the item condition system, what with the thresholds before an item actually got worse, inclusion of more merchants with 100 repair, higher costs for item repair, and weapon repair kits. It was still unbalanced as hell though.

That is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to repair being unbalanced. No two items are the same, no same item on two different weapons is the same, and none should have the same decay rate. An assault rifle with a 12 magnitude scope or w/e, compared to a hunting rifle with the same scope, offer vastly different play-styles, and should decay at different rates depending on that. Its needing to account for all these varying factors that makes actually balanced item repair impossible.

That is a naive viewpoint that flies in the face of decades of game development, across countless devs, each trying to make repair systems not svck, and all of them failing it despite constant reiteration. It also ignores how modders, who have UNLIMITED time, and no budget constraints, have spent years on making item decay systems, constantly tweaking and updating based on user feedback, and even THEY still haven't done it right. You can sit around and say "they are a professional company, they should have all the money and time needed to fix this!" but that's just a hollow complaint that ignores everything about how game development actually works.

I've only played on console, never on PC so I haven't played the games with any sort of mod, just DLC's.

The only way that I ever played FONV after it was released was in hard core because it was nothing but a boring hack, slash, gather, repeat in normal play mode without SOMETHING unpredictable to make me divert from the path looking for supplies or repair gear.

If anything "survival" mode as people are calling it should have been the default setting for the games, with an option to turn it off for the people that couldn't cut it and tried to hide it by using the word tedious.

Thats my Fallout 3 character, although rifle and sidearm are both lasers for extra flavour.

I kinda wish the game did keep a repair system of some form, but in my opinion I can absolutely see why they did it. I hope jams are still in, since my Fallout 4 character will be using a bolt-action rifle, double-barrel shotgun, and a machine pistol. It would add a little bit of depth to have the machine pistol be jamming all the time due to the rigours of automatic fire while the bolt-action is a simple and reliable machine.

Poor mistkaes in your opinion. Also. The way you've been throwing around the word "simplification" makes me think you have little to no idea what the word actually means.

They are poor mistakes. The reason why I been purchasing video games developed by Bethesda Game Studios is because.

#1. They are big, they are open world video games.

#2. I can fully customize my Player Characters (PC's).

#3. I can pick up every single item in front of my face.

#4. Because they've had armor and weapons that break, up until they released The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim for sale.

I'd agree with that. The old system was as simple as it gets - just hoard multiples of the same item and periodically repair them when they break. To me, it was just tedium to keep your items.from breaking - it rarely brought anything to the table beyond something to do with loot.

Now, instead of scavving for weapons and Armor to repair my existing ones and keep them at a baseline efficiency, I'll be breaking down those same loot items to -improve- my equipment through mods.

So almost the same mechanics, just a different focus. It would appear there's now a lot more uses for all this loot, not less.

I think this is a matter of forest vs trees, frankly.

I though you'd notice the caustic sarcasm, but clearly not... anyway moving on.
Precedent shouldn't shackle developers to previous falterings, as I've said the use of algorithms on all scopes or barrels etc could have reduced the workload to something tractable.We need to put this into perspective, hellogames made a galaxy out of algorithms and Bethesda can't balance between the variables of mods and degradation?
I don't care if it seems niave, someone has to wield Occam's razor once in a while.

then i guess u didnt play Skyrim =( im sad for you.

Quite right.

Basically, the more elaborate weapons should jam more, as a balancing trait. Ol' Painless-esque Hunting Rifle should jam but only require a re-chambering, etc, etc.

If this is one of the main reasons you purchase Bethesda Game Studios games, especiallly based on how poorly, clunky, and...boringly the system was implemented in the first place, and the removing of said system for a vastly superior system (weapon modding + armor modding) with seemingly much greater longevity and importance (and balance) makes you not purchase the game, when, the other 3 selling points you listed are still present, then, well...to put it nicely...being silly.

Heck... Some of your other selling points are even improving (i.e. the worlds getting larger, because of greater memory storage, and the ability to literally pick up almost every item in Fallout 4, including entire houses, used for the settlement construction).

I did play The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.

The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim is the video game developed by Bethesda Game Studios that got me the most upset. With how many features they removed. And how many features I didn't like that they added.

Sounds good to me. It makes a lot of sense from a lot of angles, and if we are having this thought on the forums going all armchair game developer then I am positive that Bethesda has had that thought many times before.

The system was not clunky and the system certainly is not boring at all.

Thank you Bethesda for finaly removing that usless pain in the ass mehanic that served no purpuse but to anonoy the player. It wasnt immerisve nor realistic cuz incase you didnt know guns dont just magickly lose dmg after a few shots fired nor do they require complete restorations every 50 shots fired.

Now if it wud be done diferently requiring you to maintian your gun(clean, disasemble and take care of it every few 100s rounds fired, and if you wudnt maintain it it wud start jaming more and more often untill it wud eventualy in extreme cases of neglect even blow up in your hands than i guess that wud be immersive and even semi realistical way of handing mainitaning guns), than that wud defenatly be a sytem i wud love to see on harder dificulties, but the way it was done before nah thanks far better off without it.

Yes... Because clicking a single button until the bar is greyed out and you can no longer click isn't boring and simplistic gameplay. lol

OMG it was, AwesomPossum explain it really well how bad and unbalance the system was. Is more hardcoe mode on NV was just bored bc didnt do anything that wasnt so easy to work around that u stop caring about it after the first hour of gameplay.

Then color me silly while I work on cancelling my pre-order bundle.

Okay...? Thanks for sharing though! Hope you can find a game you think is more complex and engaging, one with plenty of single button spamming minigames to indulge your apparent explosive intellect!

You missed the point. The weapons you acquire in the game already work. All they need from use is cleaning. You don'tneed to repair them.

@Awesomepossum

This is before we even discuss the semantics of why a scope would therefor necessitate that a gun would have a different degradation rate?I can see the logic in a shortened barrel vitiating a weapons health and degradation rate, but addendums like scopes and silencers etc wouldn't need to have any affect on such.

Edit: your hundred times harder claim is riddled with fallacies.

Well I would like to be able to repair the weapons.

don't let the door hit you in the [censored] on your way out

I wouldn't call it clunky and boring or deep and interesting 100% either way. And I say that as someone who would have preferred things to remain the same way as in 3/NV. The repair system is something that has the potential to be a selling point for some and a major red flag for others depending on how its implemented. I personally enjoyed it, but never once did I feel it was difficult, it was more of roleplaying thing for me. For some people it appeared as a chore, and if we were to make it a difficult and essential part of survival it would scare off people who were here to solve quests or explore and not play a game like that one Stalker mod.

I think you're assuming that Bethesda just removed it straight up out of spite rather than through considering how to make it more compelling. I am also pretty sure we dont have a clear picture on how the new systems actually work, since jamming could still be in there in a manner that I described earlier in the thread.