The code that I'm writing now assumes that back-shields are a thing. They would only display when a shield has been equipped and then subsequently unequipped (same logic as other weapons; it follows that if you unequipped it, it's something that you use, but you don't need it right now and stowed it away)

Here is what I intend to simultaneously support on your character for now. Feedback is welcome.

Back:
1 Two-Handed Weapon (Battle-Axe, Warhammer, Greatsword, Staff)
1 Bow
1 Quiver
1 Shield

Belt:
1 Sword OR Off-Hand Mace
1 Mace OR Off-Hand Sword
1 War Axe OR Off-Hand Dagger
1 Dagger OR Off-Hand War Axe

Could have the two-handed weapon coming down from the right shoulder, staff from the left shoulder? So they would form a cross?

As you said, I don't think that combination will happen too often either, but it's probably good to provide for the possibility.

I was actually going to try this with bows on the left shoulder to see how it looked. I'll give that a try too. I need to see how long staves actually are (I never used them, and Todd Howard actually calls them "wands" in the E3 demo...)

The thing about staves is that they are one-handed and you can dual-wield them.

I have no issue with them using the same "slot" as a two-hander, but there still exists the problem where a model just disappears entirely when I sheath it. That's the biggest complaint I have. I don't mind not displaying two-hander and staff at once because I can't have them both equipped at once. But I CAN have two staves equipped, so both of them should be displayed.

What about bow doubling as off-hand staff slot?

Did not know this. Shows how much I've used them.

A "model swap event" would only occur when you equip something new, not when you put it away.

Either that, or I make a new bone and run the staff parallel to it. Sounds like I have a lot of experimenting to do tonight

The question is... will this affect NPCs, too?

Followers: probably. I need to learn how. Part of this is just a learning exercise for Frostfall, and I'm going to need to affect followers soon there, too. Generic NPCs: no. Whether or not the bandit that's going to live for the next 7 seconds has 2 weapons equipped instead of 4 I don't think has ever bothered anyone. But you and your companions should be able to look like a formidable force.

Ok. Based on how the http://i.imgur.com/yDVWN.jpg, I think it would make sense to have the staves in a cross on the back (in this example, the staff in the left hand would go over the right shoulder, and the staff in the right hand would go over the left shoulder). I could use the bow slot for the primary staff and the two-hander slot for the off-hand staff (because, in my opinion, showing all 4 would probably look like crap). This also means bows would run over the left shoulder and form an X with the primary two-handed weapon / off-hand staff as well.

The back area gets very busy very quickly and I want to make sure it doesn't get too cluttered but still works the way people would expect it to.

That would mean the slot layout would look more like the following:

Back:
1 Primary Back Weapon (Battle-Axe, Warhammer, Greatsword, Off-Hand Staff) (This slot runs over the right shoulder)
1 Secondary Back Weapon (Bow, Main Staff) (This slot runs over the left shoulder)
1 Quiver
1 Shield

Belt:
1 Sword OR Off-Hand Mace
1 Mace OR Off-Hand Sword
1 War Axe OR Off-Hand Dagger
1 Dagger OR Off-Hand War Axe

So, possible back combinations could be:
A main staff and a greatsword
An offhand staff and a bow
Two staves
A greatsword and a bow

...etc. And of course, a quiver and shield in combination with those.

It would lock out the following combinations:
A main staff and a bow
An offhand staff and a two-handed weapon

Since both the bow and the two-handed weapon are both two-handed, I'm not sure how much those invalid combinations are going to matter to most people.

Is that something most of us could agree upon? I'll try to post some test screenshots tonight. I'll also see if I can make the player use the bow equip animation so that he "flips" the staff around from front to back, instead of just shunting from the back into his hand. This would probably only work for the off-hand staff because bows are drawn with the left hand.

What I meant was that if you only display a single staff, then dual-wielding staves would cause the off-hand staff to vanish when sheathed. If you display both staves, then that's not a problem

And re: your more recent post, that all sounds perfect. I'm looking forward to seeing your screenshots!

That sounds like a great arrangement, there will be options for most, if not all, playstyles.

Yup, it looks good to me. There are a few combinations of weapons that you can't have displayed at the same time, but that can't be helped. On a side note, why does your character carry staves like they are walking sticks (holding on to the top of the staff)?? I haven't tried staves in this game, but that just seems weird xD

Heh, it's literally the first second of the animation. He pulls them up when they're at the ready.

Sounds like everybody that's weighed in is pretty happy with that arrangement. I'll move forward with it.

Re: Quivers, I may have figured out a way to display them such that they're on the back when a backpack is not present (I do need backpack detection code for shields, after all), and (configurably) on the butt, side, or hip when one is present, WITHOUT breaking arrow mod compatibility. I do it by treating the quiver as a separate item. Hopefully it pans out; I'll report back sometime tonight. If it works out, I can port that functionality over to Frostfall as well.

Any idea how this might react to the http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=14060 weapons? I know it's a mod item, and you're not dealing with that, but I was wondering if you knew how that might react to this? When sheathed, would they go into passive mod on the arm AND into their assigned slot (dagger, shield) on the back as well?

That setup works, and I don't know if it would be necessary at all, but in theory,you could clone staves as you did for 1h weapons, and put them into whichever back slot wasn't already used.
If you want to clone things, you could even allow for doubling up of bows/2h weapons, just making 2 slots on the back, and equipping any 2 of bows, staves, 2h weapons to first one slot, then the other.
But that's getting into ATTT methods. You *could* do that, and there might be some people who'd appreciate it, but it would probably be a lot of work, and not as easily compatible with mods.

Yea, anything's possible, and I could make it compatible, but I'm afraid of putting too many things on the back which would make it look visually noisy. A bit of restraint here I think would be wise.

What I was trying to do with quivers absolutely kicked my butt last night. Making quiver position dynamic based on backpack (or any) state involves too many compromises to be considered a workable solution. I would have to break arrow mod compatibility, which is unacceptable. Or have it work correctly on the PC, but break quiver display for all NPCs, which is also unacceptable (and too complicated).

I think I'll just offer a few different skeleton options for quiver position and be done with it. It keeps it simple and you still get to choose (just, out of game). Quivers are an exceptionally difficult thing to work with because it's essentially a piece of apparel masquerading as a weapon, with none of the power that you usually get with apparel. Working with dynamic shield placement is going to be much, much easier, as well as any other slot.

I re-oriented the bow slot to go over the left shoulder last night, looked quite nice. I tried to get an example of back staves working but because of how long I spun my wheels on quivers, I didn't get a lot done before I passed out for the night. I should have something more substantial by today.


Edit: So about displayable shields. I can make them dynamically placed based on backpack, and make them fully compatible with all apparel. I also don't need to create a new bone for it. The catch is that the "Shield Strap" item is going to show up under Weapons. Is that going to bother anyone overly much? The alternative is making it a piece of apparel, create a new bone (which isn't that hard), and use an apparel slot, which could run the risk of overlapping with something else. But it would show up under Armor instead.

Re: The quivers you don't even have to offer a few positions. It's limited by where your characters draws arrows from anyway. The weapon positions may be a minor distraction, but with something like arrows you're going to seeing it all the time.

Re: The shield don't think it really matters. Ideally I wouldn't like an extra item at all, but WHERE it shows up doesn't bother me lol.

Keep up the good work, really rooting for this. Armed to the teeth seems to have some weird limitations like "no stell weapons" which I hope you don't run into.

The shield strap showing under weapons wouldn't be annoying at all, it's a minor detail.
I'm all for optional ESPs, it's simple, objetive, lots of other mods have optional esps and it won't give you as much trouble.

Preferably I'd like to see a screen of both methods, but I don't think the shield strap would be too bothersome.

Where would the shield be placed on a backpack? I know this mod doesn't focus on having backpacks, but I was thinking that if it is placed on the backpack (instead of between the back and the pack) than you could just create a little hook on the backpack to hook onto the shield strap and hold it that way.

Spiffyman - Visually, yes, that's exactly what I'm going do to. And visually, it will look identical no matter which method is used.

Mechanically, I'm having to pull a few rabbits out of my hat to make this look and work correctly. I am creating two dummy shields for each shield type; one goes flat against the back, and one is spaced such that it "hooks onto" the backpack. I swap these dummies in and out depending on the circumstance.

Well, that dummy is an "item" that the character possesses, and it has to go somewhere. I can call it whatever I like; I figured "shield strap" would make the most sense to tell you what it's for. The weapon dummies will have names like "Iron Sword Sheath", etc. And since those items are already members of Weapons, it makes intuitive sense that they be there; I can get away with it easily.

My concern with using an Armor dummy is running afoul of someone else's apparel slot. My concern with using a Weapon slot is that... well, it shows up under weapons instead of under armor with it's member shield.

Actually that's good idea. And if the inventory screen shows a strap/scabbard etc instead of a copy of the item then it would be effectively "seamless" as it were.

I agree, it doesn't have to show on the character, but as long as it has it's own unique inventory image, I doubt anyone will mind the extra item in their menus.

Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to pull off a separate inventory item visual. The inventory model and the equip model are one in the same. (This was a huge source of my difficulties working with quivers). But, I can try.

Edit: Wow, there's a lot of followers on this thread. I'm glad folks are interested in the project! I managed to write about a hundred lines of script code last night. I got the basic framework coded and a function to handle one-handed swords. I will get swords working first, and when the logic for that checks out, I will use that function as a template for the other weapon functions.

Oh my. So, major progress.

I was able to do a http://i.imgur.com/FUqIr.jpg. Works like a champ. That's not the major part though.


Edit: Yea, ignore most of that. Turns out this method has some http://i.imgur.com/peHYz.jpg. Oh well. Back to the drawing board...

This behavior only occurs when you don't name the item. If you give it a name, it works correctly, at the expense of adding an inventory object when you may not want one.

Awesome ... but how will work with other mods like capes and cloacks? will they use similar slot so that they won't be possible to show up at the same time?

It will display fine. Cloaks are armor, the shield (display items) will be weapons.