An article about level-scaling (25th August) : V - Skyrim

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:38 am

Someone should...
...tweet Pete.

BAD level scaling was one of the main things that made Oblivion a bad and unenjoyable experience in terms of levelling and feeling rewarded, but at the same time challenged enough.
If Bethesda hasn't already realized that and "fixed it" in Skyrim, then I don't know what the hell they are thinking with.

It's one of those things that can completely ruin the fun of feeling rewarded in the game, so it could definitely be a deal-breaker.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:31 pm

We have seen other foreign articles be somewhat wrong not because they are foreign just because it goes english->french-->english and also we have seen some English articles make wrong assumptions. i shall not believe this until official confirmation

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:09 am

they have said the caves and ruins would look like they were lived in and would have enemies that u would find in them . so scaling to match the player wouldn't work in them. I'm really hoping they didn't know what they were talking about or changed the demo to make it more playable. cos what's the point in exploring and finding fantastic weapons when the weapon won't be awesome and the enemies are at ur level . it's like ur level one for the whole game

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:57 am

LETS SPAM PETE's TWEETER WITH NO-LEVEL SCALING REQUESTS!

I am going to open tweeter now just for that. Yes I am pathetic, join me brothers.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:11 am

Is this a sick joke or what? I need official word on the subject or NO buy!

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:58 am

LETS SPAM PETE's TWEETER WITH NO-LEVEL SCALING REQUESTS!

I am going to open tweeter now just for that. Yes I am pathetic, join me brothers.

I refuse to listen to a man with a garden gnome-avatar. It gives me flashbacks to a certain little rocketeer.

Death to that gnome...

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:48 am

worries me a lot. It sounds as if they changed their mind to make sure any idiot playing the game can run around everywhere he wants without having to fear anything. Imagine how frustrated the average IQ <90 player could become if he would die while exploring the world.

Harsh as hell, but I agree with that SO much... :lol:

LETS SPAM PETE's TWEETER WITH NO-LEVEL SCALING REQUESTS!

I am going to open tweeter now just for that. Yes I am pathetic, join me brothers.

Not spam, but if anybody could tweet Pete about that article, preferably even quoting the line that made us doubt, we all would be grateful...

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:18 am

OH GODS NO!

NONONONONONONONO!

How could they do this to us again?

If Skyrim were real, areas would not change depending on how powerful you were. There would be areas too dangerous for you, and areas you could handle. That is what the game needs. But no, they've gone and ruined it. Again.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:51 pm

I refuse to listen to a man with a garden gnome-avatar. It gives me flashbacks to a certain little rocketeer.

Death to that gnome...

I think it's David the Gnome, that cartoon series from the 80's. Whether that's actually better or not, I'll leave up to you...

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:17 pm

I thought there is going to be level- scaling of some forum but not like oblivion they even stated u wont come across a bandit with daedric weapons wearing glass armor. This just sounds like old news to me,Whats funny is they said the level scaling is LIKE fallout3 not that its going to be just like fallout3,People need to relax.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:12 pm

Spam Pete's twitter .... now!

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:43 am

somebody allready asked him on twitter

@DCDeacon Great Pete Hines, May I ask - did the level-scaling method been changed to Oblivion like method? (I Hope not!)

now lets wait and pray

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:11 pm

True story from a rolemaster campaign we did ages ago: So we heard a rumor of some sorceress (?) who were keeping slaves to do mine work. Immediately we formed a plan to take her out and grab some good loot. When there, one used a skill to determine her "level" which turned out to be in the 100s, while we were just whimpy lvl 5-35'ish, without a chance going at her without loosing most if not all of our characters. We ended up talking to the guards, and suddenly we found ourselves working for her. Working FFS! And we all went like, "uhm, guys, how did this happen". In the end, turned out the real loot was obtaining ownership (some steady income) of the mine after we managed to kill her using some real cunning (some landslide spell or something, which took a while to set up) the GM adapted to, and the fame for freeing the slaves using real hired work instead. We had a few fluke streaks combined with some pretty bad rolls for the sorceress, which I believe was "influenced" by the GM as a reward for doing proper role playing and planning. Had we just assaulted her in plain sight - that would not be awarded at all by the GM, and a few characters were lost due to extremely bad decision making on our part.

So, adaptive foes, in an interesting way, for me beats a static world every time you play by a long shot! I'm not saying that Oblivion did it particularly well though

That, is exactly why i've always wanted to get into old school RPG's.

This is the kind of stuff I want to see more of in video games. I tried to do something similar in my New Vegas playthrough.

Spoiler

I tried to play all the factions behind each others back until the last minute and then went wild card on them, laughing all the way.

It was fun.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:12 am

Pete Hines has spent a lot of his time recently flying through different time zones. How would you react to having your twitter spammed when you are jet-lagged?

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:45 am

somebody allready asked him on twitter

@DCDeacon Great Pete Hines, May I ask - did the level-scaling method been changed to Oblivion like method? (I Hope not!)

now lets wait and pray

...he should have specified that article. Pete may disclaim that twit as a random complaint, and dismiss/ignore it.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:38 pm

What could be the case is that places are level locked as mentioned before (which is the good level scaling system), lv 15-20 for example, and that when you are level 15 that the creatures in that dungeon are going to be level 17. The French journalist may have misunderstood this, or accidentally wrote it in such a way that implies that all enemies are 2 levels higher than you everywhere.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:29 pm

So, what in the end? level scaling, no level scaling or a mix or both (as it was planned)?

IMO, if the article is correct, Pete's excuse is lame, I'm sorry to say. High level zones doesn't discourage players to go there, but the opposite: it'd be a reward in itself to go in there, survive, and get a nice reward for accomplishing that. Even casual gamers could enjoy them.

The only ones who would feel discouraged are 13 year-old whiners who tries to go though a difficult part doing EXACTLY the same every time, and not planning the minimum strategy or gathering the minimum resources to go though them.

This. My buddy read an article to me over XBL a few days ago it was basically a parent saying how his kid was playing Fallout New Vegas was trying to kill a deathclaw... With boxing gloves. Needless to say he got owned, Reloaded, Got owned and repeat until he eventually turned the game off in a rage and went to go watch tv. Whether the article was supposed to be an attack at the M rated game being 'hard' for his 10 year old or whether it's just proving that the next generation is stupid, I have no clue. But Nordic Run Projects point stands. Just cuz a small portion of people are too stupid to figure out 'Hey, Don't kill a high level'd monster with your crappy weapons, That's not smart.' why should they take out the extremely difficult areas that everyone else really doesn't mind.

I also agree that it serves a sense of accomplishment when you're finally powerful enough to actually kill what's in those areas.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:24 am

This reminds me of the story,The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:38 am

Didn't they say be wary of non-english translations? either way what the article says isn't too bad personally if true.... Fallout 3 didn't have a perfect level system nor does Skyrim aspire to one, just as long as it's better than the monstrosity that was entire scaling in Oblivion.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:05 am

What upsets in the end, it's back to a system of adaptive difficulty: ignoring areas with fixed level he has always been a question, Bethesda opted again for an adjustment of the level of difficulty of the places visited in the the player :confused:, according to a range from -2 to + 2 level. This system, which should still provide a minimum resistance in the two areas would be the only one compatible with a totally open for exploration.

Maybe it's the places already visited

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:49 am

This. My buddy read an article to me over XBL a few days ago it was basically a parent saying how his kid was playing Fallout New Vegas was trying to kill a deathclaw... With boxing gloves. Needless to say he got owned, Reloaded, Got owned and repeat until he eventually turned the game off in a rage and went to go watch tv. Whether the article was supposed to be an attack at the M rated game being 'hard' for his 10 year old or whether it's just proving that the next generation is stupid, I have no clue. But Nordic Run Projects point stands. Just cuz a small portion of people are too stupid to figure out 'Hey, Don't kill a high level'd monster with your crappy weapons, That's not smart.' why should they take out the extremely difficult areas that everyone else really doesn't mind.

I also agree that it serves a sense of accomplishment when you're finally powerful enough to actually kill what's in those areas.

I lol'ed at the example.

The problem is that kids technically shouldn't be allowed to play those games. And not only because of that example, but because I don't think it's completely adequate than a 10 year old guy could play some game consisting of stabbing your opponent to death with a sword. And yes, yes, I was playing Quake when I was 13, so maybe it seems a bit hypocritical, but in retrospective...now it doesn't sounds such a good idea...

Combine that with the eager of the parents to keep their kids distracted with the minimum effort from their part, and companies wanting a low Age Rating so they can sell more, and I can nearly understand the decision stated by the french magazine. Although I'd be utterly pissed off, of course.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:25 pm

So would you rather there be areas of the world with set-level monsters? Come up against a level 50 giant when you're level 1 and you're easily outmatched and denied exploration of many areas.

Or would you want a system that dynamically scales enemies to be no more than 2 more or less levels to what you currently are? Giving you a chance to tactically overcome +2 level enemies for a good fight, and still dispatch -2 level enemies with little effort?

I can see the concern of this mechanic in the game world.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:11 am

So would you rather there be areas of the world with set-level monsters? Come up against a level 50 giant when you're level 1 and you're easily outmatched and denied exploration of many areas.

Yes, I do want certain areas to be very dangerous, instead of being able to walk everywhere at any time. So the further away from civilization, the more dangerous it gets. Even if it's just inside dungeons and the exteriors are relatively safe it's better than being able to kill everything everywhere. You wouldn't enter a daedric shrine at level 1 in Morrowind either.

This also means they can hand place some artifacts that aren't scaled in dangerous dungeons.

» Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:00 am

During the journalist playthroughs one of the players went in some [censored] direction and got curb stomped by a bunch of super high level giants, so I don't think this is true.

» Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:39 pm

I just read the original article (not the google translate version). First of all, my first language is french.

I don't know what all the fuss in here is about... We never been told that there was no level scaling AT ALL in skyrim! We were told from the start that it would be more like Fallout 3 than oblivion. I didn't read anything implying that the level scaling would be like in oblivion. All it says is that there is some level scaling to allow you to fullfill the "go wherever you want". I would also prefer a fixed level system to make me want to get better and all but it doesn't seem to be their idea of fun. One thing is sure, they probably evalutate the option for every game and it would be a lot more simple for them to implement.

I'm not worried in the slightest. The bad level scaling from oblivion was one of their main concern when creating skyrim, since it was the most negative feedback they received from the fans.

Stay confident! It's gonna be awesome :foodndrink: