Hey Riggsie15, Thanks. And you're most welcome.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I still need feedback on my http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=7565 file/patch.

So far only 3 people have given me any feedback on it (even though more than 30 people have already downloaded it).
I really need to know if my fixes have eliminated the previous bugs, so that I can release Version 3.0.1 as soon as possible.

Dont worry Arwen, i will test it thoroughly later this day when i finally get some free time (lol, i think i should find job as beta tester, since i am spotting bugs realy fast )

Ok Arwen, i have tested your mod and i noticed few things:

1.Raiders dont revive anymore, when they are targeted with grenade, which is good thing. No more undead zombies ... BUT the grenade doesnt made them unconcious at all. I have tested alot, and seem to me that grenade either miss them, either kill them, never make them unconcious.(even if it is near them, i will test it more)

EDIT ON THIS 1ST ONE:

I managed to make Raider unconcious, i was using too strong explosive character (crippled his arm) but still, i think there is a grenade radius problem that affects raiders.

2.Did you intentionally made this: when you whack someone and make him unconcious you cant finish them off? (when the raider is unconcious, you cant kill them in that state?)
By the way i havent noticed any collision bugs yet.

3.The message "You are unconcious, you should come up in a bit" is too long(what i meant to say, is that your unconcious duration is too high, i think you should lower this state at least 3-4 seconds(if possible). I havent counted how much, but it seems to me that is more than 20 seconds, which is too much(judigng with my personal taste )

4.I havent been able to make raiders unconcious with my bare hands(fist fight). Is this possible, or you arent considering to implement it?

EDIT

5. I noticed when you are unconcious the Raiders talk like "Poor guy i almost feel sorry for him" and simmilar lines, which is cool . Hovewer, those lines are constantly repeated in 1 second duration , untill you re out of unconcious state. I must tell you that is a little bit annoying when there are 3 raiders, and all 3 of them are talking the same line which repeats in 1 second duration

6.Something regarding game difficulty. I have found game very easy on "very hard" difficulty with your mod. I remembered in the first versions that Raiders had more hitpoints. Now, its like 1 hit in the head, and they are dead(which is realistic, but not very fun) With all the great enchancements you made, i think your next version(after 3.01, needs some hitpoint rework and buffing)

Martigen has just announced MMM RC 5.0 which includes a new, optional, beta feature that does exactly what you want. Please see http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&showtopic=1051171&view=findpost&p=15287819. I've been playing with MMM RC 4.1 and Arwen so I know they work together. Don't know about MMM 5.0. I guess there could be some conflicts between Martigen's and Arwen's AI.

Thanks so much for all the feedback!

Like I posted in the ReadMe:
"- Tweaked all Explosions in their Force, Radius, ISRadius, and Knockdowns.
- Reset global explosive damage multiplier to default, but greatly increased splash radius.
My explosion changes were made on the explosions, not on the classes.


Yes, but not in the way that you think. When someone (including the player) is knocked unconscious, they are temporarily protected from further harm. That is just to allow combat to end, both for the player and for the NPCs. The protection only lasts for a few seconds (6, I think). Then you can finish them off (if you're into kicking someone when they are down).


I'll see about reducing the message display time. I had it set to max, just to make sure that it was working.


The Whack effect is attached to melee weapons, not to your hands. I haven't tried to make it work without attaching it to a specific weapon.


That's nothing that I changed. That is part of the default game.


With version 3.0, I actually reduced the global weapon multiplier from 2.5 to 2.0, so weapons now do less damage. I also made some Class improvements to Raiders (and to most combat Classes). So they should be stronger than ever in some ways. I changed my HP calculations back in v.2.7, as people were complaining that NPCs were becoming too strong at higher levels. But they actually have more HPs at lower levels (1-3). NPCs also received a health boost which increased their restore health from 60 to 80%.

You re welcome, i will inform you, whenever the new version comes out





Also reduce the waiting time for the player to get up, beside the message display time. I have counted, it is actually more than 30 seconds.



Maybe because i am using Alternate start module, which makes game unbalanced? I am using regulator class.

Did I write some that the effect only lasts 30 seconds? If so, please tell me where, so that I can edit it.

My Weapons module contains 3 different enchantments, with different durations and with different side effects:

• Push Away Enchantment (attached to all the default shotguns and to some ranged weapons) - unconscious for 10 seconds (acts more like a stun than a knockout)
  
• Whack Enchantment ( attached to all non-blade melee weapons) - unconscious for 35 seconds
  
• Blast Enchantment (attached to all explosions) - unconscious for 45 seconds

Martigen is eons beyond me in modding. I'm happy to see that he is tackling this.

I downloaded MMM 5.0 earlier today. Once I have time to install it, I'll check out compatibility. If there are any issues, I'll try to fix them, as I really to keep my Realism Tweak and MMM totally compatible.

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that out. Hovewer it seems to me 45 seconds too much time to wait , but there realy should be more people here to post feedback, so we can agree if time duration for unconcious should be lowered.

In the meantime i have played your mod, and it seems to me that you have nailed all the bugs that were present in 3.0 . Congrats!
The only one that is left is that damn "looping" Raider bug, but it is just a minor annoyance that happens sometimes

No news is good news from me. All is well so far.


Edit: She has already reduced the unconsious time quite a bit from 2.9.

I'd have to agree, 45 seconds does seem a bit too long. I would say, something like 30 seconds could be the maximum? So:



Something like that?

Also, while I'm here: Arwen, I have to say this mod really is pretty hardcoe going! I've been following your Fallout3 Journal for a while now - it's really been an incredibly useful guide as to load order and which new mods could be thrown into the harsher world/survival mix. :thumbsup:

I do feel a little late to party, however, as I'm only just getting to grips with your mod after I realised you'd ripped out a whole bunch of mods from your load order in favour of your own. As such, I fear I'm bringing up old discussions in relation to Vats and movement speed... :facepalm:

Firstly, the Vats plugin was something I left out of my load order because it was really crippling the gameplay I had become accustomed to with your previous mod load order (Combat Enhanced Package, I believe was responsible). And it was also interfering with Sprint Mod, which uses Action Points as a kind of energy meter. It probably wasn't entirely balanced the way I had it set up anyway, but it was a bit of a shock when I ran out of "energy"/AP and had to wait a while to use VATS. :shocking:

Secondly, movement speed: now I've read over the previous discussion in this thread and I can understand the logic for the changes and that you are happy with them. That's fine - it's your mod. :nod:

However, I'm just wondering if it would be possible to make Vats and movement speed seperate plugins? I know you've already merged the Vats plugin, and I'm loathe to ask you to pull it out again... Having said that, I'm finding myself tweaking settings myself via an override plugin, but I'm sure there's some setting I'm missing because I'll be damned if I get can my dude to run/walk at the same speeds he used to! :bolt:

I'm quite happy tweaking stuff myself, but it does seem the game I've been playing for the better part of a year has just changed dramatically. Don't get me wrong, the mod you've created is totally awesome, but I think with VATS and movement speed being the players main input/feedback mechanic with the game, they are something that has to be juuust right.

I don't know - I'm happy to let it lie, if you don't fancy ripping your mod apart again - just something to think about I guess. :shrug:

Ahh, MMM 5.0 has just finished downloading - I'm gonna be giving that and your latest tweaks a go with a brand spanking shiny new game - Alternate Start stylee...

In any case, keep up the good work Arwen! :tops:

You've just been blown up! Shouldn't that result in a substantial negative effect? I'm using Real Injuries in my own game, with the Wounds System enabled. Having that enabled means that my character suffers from blood loss with she is injured badly enough . . . such as when she steps on a Frag mine. I originally had this set to 60 seconds, but reduced it when some people thought it was a bit too long. So what I have now is a compromise. If I reduce it even more, then I would have to reduce the time unconscious when whacked (as being whacked is generally a bit less severe than being exploded). And if I shorten the time unconscious when whacked, it would not be long enough to suffer from much blood loss at all.
There's also another reason: There has to be enough time (especially with the whack effect) for my attacker to walk far enough away, so that when I come to half dead, that I have time before I'm attacked again. Plus I play my game where I only kill when there's no other choice. Knocking someone out gives me the choice of just walking away.


Thanks. My goal has been to add more immersion and to make the game MUCH more challenging.


The mods that I removed were not as compatible with each other, or they made some of my other tweaks unbalanced.


Well, I don't use the Sprint mod because it goes against the entire intent of my mod ... which is to make the game more balanced. The mod gives you an unfair advantage because the NPCs and creatures are not able to sprint.


My mod has "Realism" in its name for a reason. If you don't want my VATS or speed changes, don't use the Main Tweaks module.


Exactly. That's why I've worked so hard to get it just right.

Ok, lets make a compromise . How about lowering the grenade knockdown to 40 seconds? I think that would be perfect
I read the part where you said that npc dont sprint. I noticed when i use FWE the NPC actually sprint!(Raiders), making a game even more chaleging. I remember i w as using an older version of FWE with sprint, and Raiders actually run fast as rabits (for short amount of time)

Another thing that i would like to know before you release 3.01 beta with new merged weapons module, is compatibility with MMM and FOOK2. (if possible )

I'm not going to change my knockout durations unless I hear from more people who think it it is too long. I've explained my reasons, and haven't yet heard anything to support why it should be less.

Are you sure that they are sprinting, or does FWE just increase their movement speed multiplier?
I still don't get why you and others feel that your character, who is probably loaded down with gear most of the time, should be able to run fast across rough terrain. Put on a 50 pound pack and see just how fast you can run a mile in real life.
My mod's movement speeds are not just random changes, they are based on realistic walking and jogging speeds.
My Realism Tweaks results in a:
1.) Holstered walking speed of 104 units per second = 4.88 feet per second [104/21.3]; = 17,577 feet per hour (4.88*60*60); = 3.33 mph (17,577/5280).
Note: the average walking speed is around 3 mph, so my walking speed equals a fairly fast pace.
2.) Holstered running speed of 240 units per second = 9.58 feet per second [240/21.3]; = 34,479 feet per hour (9.58*60*60); = 6.53 mph (17,577/5280) [it takes 9.2 minutes to run a mile].
Note: the average jogging speed is around 6 mph, so my running speed equals a fast jogging pace.


My Realism Tweaks are not now compatible with FOOK and have never been. It would take a patch to make the two compatible. And I just don't have the time to put into creating patches for mods that I don't even use (I'm only one person).
My Tweaks were totally compatible with MMM 4.XX, but I don't know about MMM 5.0, and it will be a while before I can check on it. I'm guessing that there won't be any major incompatibility.
I'm releasing v.3.0.1 tomorrow. I don't want people downloading v.3.0.0 any longer, and it appears that the bugs are now fixed. I just need to test out a few final game setting first.

Hmm, you got me wrong, i havent said i dont like the changes regarding running. They are great. I just said that using fwe makes raiders sprint for a short period of time, which makes game more challenging.(because raiders can dodge fast for short duration). Personally i think sprinting svcks, and it is not realistic when you carry too much weight. The cool thing would be to somehow allow raiders and player to sprint when they are not under heavy weight load(but i guess that is too hard to script, if not impossible)


As far as grenades goes. I dont know if you remember, but you critisized FWE long time ago for being realistic whilst making game not that fun. Your concept was to balance relism and fun Well, for me waiting 45 seconds to get up is not fun at all. It is too much.(for me). And you are right, you need more feedback about this duration change. So far you got 2 votes to lower the values

If it helps I had a quick look (comparing Arwen's tweaks FULL) and the only overlaps are game settings, mainly dealing with crippling etc for which you want Arwen's to override. There's also the 'stability' settings from RC 4.2 in there but you can copy those across from RC5.0 or remove them. Some of the same (the ones we thought were causing the issues, like combat) while others are higher than you set them, such as dead body count removal. A higher body count should be ok, and will allow players to loot more corpses before they disappear.

When I eventually get around to properly playing I was thinking of trying an Arwen's + FOOK2 combination -- what exactly is incompatible with regards to FOOK?

Re: Knockdown/Whack timer...

Arwen, I vote you keep the 45 sec (that's what you've decided on now, right?) knocked out duration. Yours is the only mod I'm aware of with this KO effect both for you and npcs. It's a unique option. If you make it too short, you will lose the unique things it allows (like your non-violent way out of a lot of encounters).

Re: Sprinting
I'm pretty sure anybody who really wants to can just install the Sprint Mod (It's included in FWE but I'm pretty sure it's a stand-alone, too). I personally like the effect, because it uses action points and allows you to sprint (with weapon holstered) for a configurable amount of time. Mine is set I think to 1.7 seconds, or close to it. This I don't find too unrealistic (if you also configure the action point cost high enough to matter), because sprinting for that short an amount of time even wearing a 50 lb pack is doable. It just costs you something. You have to recharge for a few moments. Thus the action point cost.

Keep up the great work, Arwen. While there is lots of overlap in overhaul-type modding, your collection stand out as having a unique perspective.

gothemasticator

Hey Martigen,

That would be great! I downloaded your latest version, but haven't had a chance to even look at it yet. Please let me know what you discover, as I'm totally willing to do what I can on my end to keep our mods compatible.
The crippling is just that my settings result in being able to walk/run much slower when you have crippled leg(s).

These settings were where we had the most differences in MMM 4.0:
- iAINumberActorsComplexScene = 30 [MMM=40]
- iNumberActorsGoThroughLoadDoorInCombat = 4 [MMM=6]
- iNumberActorsInCombatPlayer = 30 [MMM=40]
- iRemoveExcessDeadComplexCount = 3 [MMM=6]
- iRemoveExcessDeadComplexTotalActorCount = 20 [MMM=40]
- iRemoveExcessDeadCount = 20 [MMM=30]
- iRemoveExcessDeadTotalActorCount = 25 [MMM=40]

Mine are set lower due to the increased load that my mod puts on combat . . . which is even higher, now that I have added my knockout scripts. Those settings shouldn't cause any real conflicts, but mine may prevent some crashes on some less-than-top-end systems.

I know that my Weapons and Armor modules are not very compatible with FOOK2. I don't use FOOK in my own game, but others have told me that the combination of my FULL Tweaks and FOOK (1 & 2) makes the game very unbalanced . . . especially with the weapons, which become too overpowered. There should be less compatibility issues now with my Survival module (now that it no longer contains my armor AR and my weapon damage modifiers), but I expect that there are still some major incompatibilities with that module, as it still contains some global weapon changes.

My SmarterAI module may work ok with FOOK2, and my Locational Damage module may also work ok, as those are the two that I think would have the fewest compatibility issues.

Sorry . . . it was really late when I replied and I do get a bit tired of hearing from people who feel that my Realism Tweaks make the game too difficult, and expect me to make a separate modules for everything, so that they don't have to use any of my changes that make the game harder. This really frustrates me, as I've clearly stated in my mod's description, in the ReadMe, and on my website: "Do NOT install this mod unless you want the Wasteland to be a harsher place, where you will have to struggle just to survive. If you install my Tweaks, you'll instantly have a game that requires you to use a LOT more strategy."

I'm not lumping you in with that group, just trying to explain why I was feeling a bit touchy about some of the most recent comments about my mod. It had been a LONG day, and I feel that I was a bit short with you, and I'm sorry . . . as you didn't deserve that.

I really don't remember making that comment about FWE. I initially tried FWE and stated on my site that it was the best overhaul, for people who were looking for a large single-mod overhaul. I did feel that FWE was more focused on combat than want I personally wanted, but the main reason that I stopped using it was that it was not compatible with many of the mods that I was using and recommending at the time. Now that version 4.0 is out, I may give it another try.

The game does not animate movement speeds well. Your character is actually covering ground at a good pace, even though they look like they are moving in slow motion. When NPCs are "running" fast, it looks like they are speed-skating, which totally breaks immersion for me. You also have to remember that my mod increases both the base movement speed and the holstered weapon modifier. I even wrote in my ReadMe that holstering a weapon is sort of a sprint toggle ... and it doesn't even use up Action Points.

Oh, speaking of action points, I totally changed the way they are calculated in v.3.0: "Agility is a much bigger factor [4 times greater] in determining your total number of Action Points, with a MUCH greater range in points [AG:1-10 = 28-100 (default was only 66-85)]". So, if you feel that you don't have enough AP (or that your character is not moving fast enough), make a character with a high Agility. I also redid the way strength is factored into your carrying capacity, so that you can greatly increase you weight limit by creating a character with a high Strength. One of my goals has been to make the distribution of your SPECIAL points more meaningful, by giving the values more weight in the game (such as how STR is a greater factor in determining your Melee damage; and how your bartering skills are are now a greater factor in determining your costs for goods). With v.3.0 changes in your character's STR, AG, END, and PER can make a HUGE difference in game play. So chose wisely.

Ok Arwen, no problem, i know ppl are edgy when they spend so much time trying to please everybody, and others dont see that effort
When can we expect 3.01?(or whatever number )

It's about time that I hear from someone who agrees with me! Being knocked out by a Super Mutant, of being blown up should have MAJOR consequences. (Wait until people figure out that these acts also result in a loss of Perception and Agility, both for way more than a few seconds). You should have to remain unconscious for long enough to suffer the consequences of your actions (or your bad luck) . . . and there needs to be enough time for other events to occur. (I've actually had mutants return and finish me off.)


Exactly! But there is the problem that my mod greatly slows down how long it takes APs to recharge, which I don't personally see as a problem, and I'm not about to change, since I feel it is an essential part of my VATS changes (needed to make VATS more balanced).


Thanks! My own gameplay is quite different from the mainstream, and my Tweaks were made to enhance my type of gameplay, so that makes total sense.

I need to test out my last few changes a bit more. I should be able to have it ready by early this afternoon (like in 3 or 4 more hours at most).

Not that this is something you really want to hear, but I would also like a drop in unconscious time.

Only for the shotgun though. Being beat up and blown up should cause a long unconscious period, but 10 seconds for a shotgun blast just seems too long.

I would recommend a drop to 5 seconds, but then you would need to adjust how long people are invulnerable when unconscious as well. Also, if you lower the other unconscious times, I would recommend you drop them by no more than 5 seconds.

Anyway keep up the great work, and completely ignore what I say if you want, it is your mod after all.

Excuse me while I get on my soapbox for a moment.

I think the reason that most gamers use game-play altering mods such as Arwen's Realism Tweaks and Mezmorelda's Fallout Wanderers Edition (FWE) is that the vanilla FO3 is too easy. The difficulty settings of FO3 don't increase the difficulty in a fun way. Arwen's and Mez's overhauls do. I play both of these mods (with different characters of course) with normal difficulty and find the games to be fun and challenging, especially in the beginning. If it wasn't for their hard work I would have stopped playing FO3 after my first game. Arwen does make the Wasteland a harsher place and makes you think about every move you make. You have to think about how you are going to develop your character. You have to think about what equipment you are going to carry. You have to think about how you are going to tackle each problem. You have to think!

I prefer overhaul mods, such as Arwen's, because the designer has a vision and attempts to implement that vision with a set a coordinated changes. Often they provide the gamer with some options so permit some level of customization within the mod while still maintaining the overall integrity of the mod. Arwen has done so by packing her tweaks in a collection of plug-ins so you can pick the ones you want. Arwen has a very clear vision and she has articulated it on a number of occasions and has done an excellent job of explaining her rational for her tweaks. For example, she just explained her rational for the length of time she selected for unconscious period. Arwen listens to her users and does a better job communicating with them then most authors. She has been willing to accept suggestions that fit into her overall vision and has rejected those that she feels are counter to her vision. This is what a good designer should do because in the end she is reasonable for the mod so she has to be comfortable with it.

When playing with an overall mod I try to limit my other mods so has not to distort the overhaul mods re-imagining of the game. For example, when I play using Arwen's tweaks I also use http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3211, http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=7674, http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=801 and my own mod that reduces the skills pointes provided by Bobbleheads and books, and reduces the benefits provided by certain perks. I feel that these changes are consistent with Arwen's vision of a harsher wasteland. I play FO3 as a shooter (with great role playing) so I also use the http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1854, http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1193,http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5606, and http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=5351 mods. I never use VATS. Sure the slo-mo is nice but it disrupts the game play and feels like a cheat. Let's face it, the only reason it's there is to help people hit their targets using a gamepad. I know that Arwen doesn't like Sprint so she shouldn't incorporate that into her mod. Since I don't use VATS I spend my Action Points on sprinting and bullet time.

I've not upgraded yet to version 3.0 but when I do I plan to use all of Arwen's Tweaks except for the Weapon's mods because I use Weapon Mod Kits. In order to properly use Arwen's Weapons mod with WMK I'd have to create a compatibility patch, which I may do before starting my next game.

Thanks for listening. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Couldn't have said it any better. And your going to really like version 3.