Martigen is working on a tweak for detection in combat situations, it's included in the latest release of MMM, but only for Raiders ant it's deactivated by default, as it's untested. Look here for the details: http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1053764&view=findpost&p=15287777

Cool, it looks like Martigen has been looking at the MaxDistance variable that I suggested may be the issue, only for outdoors.

What level were you playing at? What is your Sneak skill at? Are you staying far away and using a sniping rifle? Are you using my FULL Tweaks, or just the SmarterAI module? Even though my modules can be used separately, the FULL Tweaks results in the best balanced, since so many of the settings seem to cause changes in other areas.
I mostly created my own documentation, through trying different values and play testing the results.

You can't just look at one setting and assume that my change of one value is causing the problem. In this case, while I have lowered the Sneak Max Distance a bit, I'm also using a much higher value for the Sneak Sound Los Mult, and have increased the Sneak Light modifier, and increased the values for perception (and adjusted a whole slew of other settings). Making changes (especially in the combat AI and sneak) is a delicate balancing act between a very large number of game settings. Without a LOT of scripting, there doesn't seem to be a way to perfectly balance sneak for all abilities, at all levels, at all distances, for all light levels, in all locations, against all types of enemies . . . all you can really aim at is an average balance that works fairly well in most situations.

The thing is that others have complained that my mod makes sneaking too difficult, and that when they shoot one NPC, that any nearby NPC instantly locks on to them. So how am I to know which way to adjust my settings, when I'm getting such totally conflicting feedback?

Hi Arwen,
First of all, let me clarify that I wasn't complaining about your mod. I have tried just about every sneak and ai related mod available over the past week or so and yours definitely has shown some of the best results, especially at closer contact distances, though in all cases I was able to pick off enemies without causing undue alarm to their comrades. This weakness in the ai is one of the things I find most disappointing in the game so I have been trying see exactly what the problem is and whether there is a way to deal with it.
In terms of the attack situation, I was at 10th level with sneak of 56 using only the SmarterAI module.
All shots except for the last few were taken with the hunting rifle at over 100'.
I took each of the initial shots stationary from the maximum distance available, from near pitch darkness (100'+ from any light source) and if possible from behind cover. All movement between firing positions was done at walking speed with no piplight.
There were 7 raiders in the main station area; 2 moving about on ground level. 3 roaming the tops of the train carriage, and 2 more moving around the upper level.
I shot the 3 carriage roamers first. I took the shot when each raider had moved as far as possible from the other visible enemies.
The 'hidden/caution/danger' messages were turned on so I could gauge the detection status. Upon each shot the status turned briefly to danger before switch almost immediately back to hidden.
After I popped the carriage and ground raiders with headshots, I then took out the one of the upper baddies with an assault rifle from about 50'. The second one, who was initially out of LOS, immediately sounded off and ran up to attack (and die).
In a previous close range attack, I shot another raider near a tunnel junction from the darkness, which alerted 2 more guys who were just around the bend but not visible when I iced their buddy.
It seems you are definitely on the right track as far as the light and sound elements go, even for enemies out of LOS. I suspect this is why some may have complained that they shot one enemy and others nearby came running. I don't understand why anyone would complain about that, as that is exactly the type of realistic behavior we should be aiming for.


From what I have read, detection is influenced by 3 main external factors: Sound, light, and distance. I am quite sure the issue is not one of sound or light, because the close range kills which were made from the same sort of stationary and dark positions definitely put nearby enemies on alert.
After reviewing the sneak settings, it seems to me that the most likely issue is the change you made to the fSneakMaxDistance. All of the shots in question were made outside of the limits you set, so if I understand the mechanics correctly, it was impossible for the ai to successfully detect me.
I am starting to get a feel for how the detection algorithm works, and it seems to me that the MaxDistance should be bumped way up. If you have ever heard a highpowered rifle fired indoors, there is no way that you can miss it. Also, turning on a light in a dark room should be an almost instant detection at any possible game distance.
One potential issue is that increasing the MaxDistance significantly will tend to draw distant enemies from down the tunnels. Actually though, this strikes me as pretty realistic.
I am going to play with the numbers a bit and see how it works out.

One other point, and a quick question.
First of all I see you dialed down the BootWeightBase to 1 (from the default 12). In spite of your increases to the Mult, I think this is still likely to dramatically decrease the effects of wearing heavier armor, no?

Also, do you have any idea of how frequently the engine calculates the detection "rolls"?
I thought at first that there must be some time variable that determines how long a suspicious enemy will continue to seach, but couldn't find anything in the settings. Then I read that "Once detected, the target remains detected until he/she can get his/her detection end-result below a certain threshold vs. the origin. "
So I guess that if a baddie hears a gunshot within his detection range, that moves him up to the "noticed" state. If he doesnt spot you or hear another shot before the next detection roll, I think he most likely returns to the previous state.
Knowing the period of these rolls would be a real aid to determining an optimum MaxDistance.
E.g. Raider hears a shot some distance down the tunnel, gets suspicious and starts moving towards it, but after a short time without seeing or hearing anything else, decides it was nothing and returns to what he was doing.

I've been playing this mod with MMM on Very Hard difficulty and it's awesome!

Only firefights can be prolounged, any close up encounters are quick and brutal, and cover and tactical assessments are crucial to your success.

Two shots from a shotgun/special pistol up close is all the lone wanderer can handle, and I think it's awesome having some kind of challange put back into the game ^^

That said; cool!

Thanks so much for the feedback! I'm glad that you are enjoying my Tweaks. My changes were balanced for Normal Difficulty, but should in theory work almost as well at any other difficulty setting . . . so it is nice to hear that they seem to be working so well at Very Hard.

---------------------------

Gurachn, I do appreciate your detailed feedback, but I cannot explain all of my individual changes in detail. Due to my brain injury, I have language difficulties, which means that it takes me a VERY long time to write out my replies.

So here's the short answer: If I just "bumped MaxDistance way up," as you're suggesting, it would really mess up my mod. I would have to change at least another 6 values, which would require a very lengthy balancing process. But I'll consider increasing it a bit in v.3.2.1 (but it will still be lower than default) . . . it will depend on how my play testing goes.


No it doesn't . . . it INCREASES the noise detection when you're wearing Heavier armor.

Understood, and no problem. It's not my intent to give you extra work. I am only reporting what I have observed during my run throughs with your mod.


I spent a few hours yesterday fiddling with the variables and doing controlled runthroughs, and confirmed that the MaxDistance is the major (but not the only) variable that allowed my headshotting spree. Personally, I would suggest adjusting it to somewhat above the default, but it's your mod.


How Strange. Are you sure? The Wiki seems to indicate that the increasing the value of the penalty variables, also increases the origin's chances of exceeding the detection threshold. Switching between the vault suit and Ranger combat armor also seemed to make little change in detection.

Gurachn, it's not a problem, as I love getting feedback . . . but sometimes yours can be a real challenge for me to respond to.


Yes, that would make a difference, and it would make your gameplay style under those conditions work better for you. But it would cause problems with other ways of playing, in other conditions, at other skill levels. There's also the fact that you are not using the rest of my Realism Tweaks, which can really change the way that my SmarterAI mod works at different skill levels (since both the player and the NPCs are affected so much by all my other changes). And aren't you using a really high headshot multiplier?

For v.3.2.1, I've increased the fSneakMaxDistance to 2200 (along with some other changes), and that makes sneaking quite a bit more difficult (especially when at lower Sneak skills) . . . increasing it any more would make things too difficult at lower skill levels.



Yes, I'm pretty sure.
The formula is: Movement Sound = ( fSneakBootWeightBase + fSneakBootWeightMult * armor weight) [this is for walking; if running, the result is multiplied by fSneakRunningMult]
For 8-pound armor: Default: 12+(0.5*8) = 16; my SmarterAI: 1.0 + (1.50*8) = 13 (smaller value = http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1064654-relz-arwens-realism-tweaks-thread-4/quieter).
For 20-pound armor: Default: 12+(0.5*20) = 22; my SmarterAI: 1.0 + (1.50*20) = 31 (greater value = http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1064654-relz-arwens-realism-tweaks-thread-4/noisier)

One of my biggest reasons for creating my Skills module was because I felt that a character that just left Vault 101 for the first time should have much lower skills than what they had in the default game. The other thing is that the Skill Books and the Bobbleheads made it way to easy to gain skill points (and SPECIAL points). I really like the way my Skill Book and Perk changes are working out, as they really feel balanced with my other Skill Point changes (and the rest of my Tweaks). Now I’m basically trying to do the same thing with the Bobbleheads. There are 20 Bobbleheads in FO3. The 13 Skill bobbleheads were easy to fix, I just reduced the number of bonus skill points your receive. I haven't decide yet on whether I'll set them to 3 or 4 (default was 10); but my modified script works with my global modifier, so this can easily be changed.

But the 7 SPECIAL Bobbleheads (the ones that increase each SPECIAL by +1 point each), had me a bit stuck. So, after trying all sorts of things, I’ve decided to leave them at default, since I cannot seem to come up with a better solution. Don't worry, I didn't just give up. I still needed to do something, as being able to add another point to every SPECIAL unbalances my Skills module (making these 7 Bobbleheads too powerful). After thinking about this, I finally figured out that the problem wasn’t really with the 7 SPECIAL Bobbleheads . . . it was actually due to the fact that the player was initially given a bit too many points to distribute.

So what I have done is reduce the initial SPECIAL points that you get from 40 to 37. That way, even with all 7 SPECIAL Bobbleheads, and both Ranks of Intense Training (which my mod changes), you could only end up with 46 SPECIAL points.
[Note: the number of SPECIAL points you receive will only be reduced in new games (when you select your point spread in the Baby Book), and when you first leave the vault and are given one last chance to change your SPECIALs. My changes will NOT remove any SPECIAL points from an existing game (except for possibly some perk related points).]

And since this seemed a bit harsh at lower levels, I’m increasing the initial number of number of skill points you’ll receive (from v.3.2), based a bit more on your SPECIALs. So characters should not actually start out any weaker than with my current version. . . . although, since you'll have 3 less SPECIAL points to distribute, you'll have to be more selective than ever in how you use them.

Initial skill points changes in v.3.2.1, based on their SPECIAL link.
You'll still only receive 7 points to distribute at level up (before any Perk bonuses). And you'll still gain 2 points for every point you put in your tagged skills.

This should help make up for the initial loss of the 3 SPECIAL points (in v.3.2.1), while making Bobblehead rewards more important, but also more balanced (I hope).
Oh, I'm also adjusting some of my perk requirements, to work better with the 3 less SPECIAL points.

He he, challenge stimulates progress



Cool.
I encountered an interesting thing when experimenting the a MaxDistance of 2800. I did 3 or 4 run-throughs with the same basic pattern to insure consistancy. Increasing the parameter didnt seem to dramatically effect my ability to sneak past LOS enemies as long as I was slow and dark, and I definitely make a marked difference to the issue of headshotting baddies one at a time. In general the first shot/kill put the whole pack on alert and I even noticed that on two occasions it seemed to call a few enemies from further down the tunnel. I wouldnt say it was pleasant, but definitely realistic.
I really thought I had this headshotting loophole nailed.
However, one of the last tries I was able to shoot a patroller without alerting the rest of the pack, in spite of being quite sure that I was in MaxDistance radius of at least one other enemy.
I wasnt able to repeat this on the next try, and I neither was I ever able to fire a shot without putting the pack on alert.
The only thing I can imagine is that since this particular enemy was the closest, and the only one in my LOS, and also out of sight of any other enemy LOS that perhaps the engine checked detection upon the shot. But when the raider was instantaneously snuffed, it halted the detection check without running check rolls for any other origins within earshot.
Definitely odd, but fortunately seems uncommon as long as the shooter is within the MaxDistance limits.

Aha!
That all makes sense now!
Please tell me where you got the formula from. I can't seem to find them in either the GECK or TES wikis.
Damn frustrating to have to try to puzzle out how the settings work!

The total will be 47 if you include the fire ant perk.

Arwen . . . what we did for FWE was create a little menu script thingy for the SPECIAL bobbleheads so that when you pick up a special BH, you can raise that stat by 1, but it REDUCES another stat (your choice of three) by 1. Or you can just take the bobblehead and have it do nothing. So it let's you specialize your character, or redistrbute SPECIALS in a sense, but doesn't throw the overall balance out the window.

I often thought about reducing intitial SPECIALS as you've proposed as well. It seems wierd that all your SPECIALs start at "5" (i.e. average) and then you get FIVE more points to raise them all. I often considered dropping it way down so you start with only 4 in each starting stat (or maybe zero point to add, forcing you to redistribute early on). This really woudl force a lot of PERK specialization though, since you'd likely only ever have 2-3 stats that would get high enough to use the top level Perks.

Oops! Thanks, I totally forgot those.
And actually there are 2: Ant Might gives +1 STR; and Ant Sight gives +1 PER.
Which means that you could end up with a maximum of 48 SPECIAL points total (and the default game would be 59 max . . . I think)
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Hey Mez,

I never really considered a stat trade off. It sort of makes sense, but I like my character to improve as the game progresses, which has been much of the focus of my mod, especially in the latest versions. This is the reason that I didn't want to just remove stat bonuses from the Skill Books and Bobbleheads (without any bonuses, their isn't much reason for them to exist).

Only 4 points/stat . . . that would only be 28 points! And I thought I was being harsh at removing just 3 points! But I'm now planning on reducing the initial amount of SPECIAL points down to 35 (a perfect average), but perhaps using a global modifier, so this can be easy to changed.

You choose between Ant Might and Ant Sight so you only get one, so there are still only 47 SPECIAL points


Personally, I would have preferred the bobble heads to have simply been easter eggs that did not affect your stats. I never collected them before removing the stat boosts they caused because it was so immersion breaking to gain an increase from a bobble head, so I actually like the ability to choose to gain the stat boost or not since it does not force the boost.


I would like the 35 SPECIAL points, with bobblehead points optional. It's more like the original fallout games, but with the ability to gain significant bonuses if you want them.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. And that makes a LOT more sense, since adding both SPC points seemed a bit much for one quest.


Personally I would have much preferred to improve my skills just by using them, but I don't know how to change the game so that would happen. So I concentrate on modding the areas that I can actually improve, for the way that I play. I look at Bobbleheads as sort of trophies . . . that prove that I have survived the Wasteland (mostly) long enough to find them, so I have no problem receive a stat reward for picking one up . . . as long as the rewards are balanced to mesh with the rest of my gameplay.


I'm using a global modifier for the Bobbleheads that reward you skill points, so you could change that to 0 real easy. But the 7 SPECIAL bobbleheads would involve editing all 7 of their scripts, which I don't feel I need to do, since I'm basically canceling out 5 of those 7, by reducing the initial SPECIAL points by 5.

You might want to look at the "FF Interactive Bobbleheads" mod posted on Nexus. It uses globals to control the SPECIAL and SKILL bonuses from bobbleheads that would be easy for people to change in-game if they wanted. Might be able to replicate the functionality for your mod.

Out of curiosity, there is a gamesetting that controls the initial number SPECIAL points you start with correct? I thought I saw one at one point . . . can't remember what it was. Is that how you're implementing the SPECIAL reduction?

I've used "FF Interactive Bobbleheads" and have had it as one of my FO3 mod list's recommended mods since early summer. But it does a bit more than I really wanted and I've had some trouble where my Bobbleheads disappear completely with that mod. So I wanted something a lot simpler, that didn't change the Bobbleheads, but just reduced their rewards.

The only way that I know of reducing the initial number of SPECIAL points is by editing the Baby Book script and the Vault exit script (CG01SpecialBookSCRIPT & Vault101ExitScript).

Thanks for that . . . strange, I coudl swear that there was a gamesetting for base SPECIAL quantity. I'll post it here if I come up with it =)

My main beef with messing with the max sneak distance, etc is this:

It invokes a completely unbelievable 'zerg' mentality in the AI where they suddenly know EXACTLY where you are, and can track you no matter where you go.



There was a sneak overhaul mod for Oblivion that addressed this very aspect, causing the NPCs, rather than KNOWING where you are infallibly (because they are computer operated), to go into a 'SEARCH MODE'.

Each NPC has a range, based on its type and stats, that it will search from its home position (editor/wander/patrol position). Beyond that range the AI will stop searching and return to its 'base', which makes sense from a reality perspective....if I search for a sniper for 15 minutes and don't find him...I'm not going to stay away from the post my boss ordered me to man...But I will be on high alert and the slightest sound or movement would cause me to start searching again.

In Oblivions case, it became possible (although very difficult) for a light armored, high skill character to snipe someone with a bow, sneak a number of feet away into a dark shadow, and crouch there, undetected even though the AI walked right in front of him....but had their back turned.

If the AI turned and LOOKED at the shadow, the game was up and the player was detected...but as long as direct line of sight was not made, there was a chance based on skill, stats, and gear to go unnoticed.

From a youth misspent, I can tell you this is closer to how things really work. I've hidden in/on/under cars/trucks/dumpsters/trees/roofs, you name it, and had Johnny Law shining his flashlight within INCHES of my face and the poor schmuck still never saw me.

If at ALL possible, a system like this should get implemented in Fallout. It would be murderously brutal on people with low sneak, people in heavy armor, people moving fast, and people firing loud weapons...but if you use a silenced weapon, wear light armor, and bother to train agility and sneak, you should be almost a ghost on the wind as far as the AI is concerned.

Again, one of the MAJOR determining factors, as I understand it, was LOS. (line of sight). As long as you were a) in shadow or B) out of LOS or c) both, your chances to remain unfound went way up.

Fallout 3 does a piss poor job of handling stealth, in my opinion. There is no way twenty raiders are going to spot me in deep shadow, wearing black night ops light armor, WITH a stealth field, USING a silenced sniper rifle, from 150 yards away and then be able to not only zero in on THAT position, but track me flawlessly for several HUNDRED yards through twisting interconnected passageways.

Elanthil01,

I don't mean to be blunt, but I don't know how else to put this:

Have you even tried my SmarterAI module? Because I'm not "messing" around with settings. My SmarterAI is view by many as a pretty good sneak / AI improvement mod. Fallout 3 does a MUCH better job of handing stealth than in Oblivion, and my mod greatly enhances this.

The NPCs in my mod are alerted by your presence (in one of many ways), but they don't just zero in on you (unless you fire a weapon or make enough noise to be heard, or are plainly visible) . . . they search for you. And, if they don't find you, they return to their previous location. And their search ability is based on their stats.

My stealth is pretty harsh and getting even harsher in v.3.3 (formerly v.3.2.1).

Yeah Pinky hits the nail on the head.

First off, Bethesda's stealth mechanics are among the best in the industry, ever since they hired some ex Dark Project guys to work on Oblivion(and consequently Fallout3). You know, you actually have to stealth and don't have a "turn invisible button" ala WoW or Dragon Age.
With that being said however, Fallout 3's default stealth settings are really forgiving. You can [censored] around a lot without getting seen.
Arwen's Smart AI module(which is what we have integrated in FWE) makes stealth actually a challenge and it's pretty much the best stealth "overhaul" around. You actually have to do more than just raise your stealth skill to 100 to be sneaky.
If you want easier stealth, you have to look no further than to just play vanilla Fallout. And as Arwen said, Fallout 3's stealth system is pretty robust, it's just a bit too lax for the more hardcoe crowd.

What they said.
Its an extremely complex and flexible system that takes into account not only LOS but also light, sound, distance and the origin and target skill levels. No Zerg ability here!

Since we are on the subject, Arwen, I have been following up the issue of the ability to kill enemies from long distance one at a time. As you know I have been experimenting with upping the MaxDistance to a 2800 radius (Sounds/Light Mults adjusted to account for the increased overall sensitivity).
In Foggy Bottom station I encountered a group of raiders and spent some time stalking them and killing them with a silenced 10mm while tweaking the numbers. Very challenging but fun.
After about 15 minutes of crawling around like a rat, there were only 2 left in branch tunnel across the station.
I estimated the distance to be beyond my 2800 settings and I was right. At that range I could stand and jump near a light in their LOS without causing them to react.
I fired a full mag from my assault rifle into the ceiling - no reaction.
Interestingly If I fired and missed, but hit a spot say 50' away from them, they instantly went on alert, and started searching indicating that they are sensitive to the sound and/or light of the impact if not of the firing. Eventually they found nothing (somehow not noticing me jumping up and down in the spotlight across the hall!) and gave up the search.
Finally I took a shot, headshotting 1 of the raiders. His buddy pacing about 10' away took no notice (as far as I can tell there is no mechanism for having the ai react to bodies, can you confirm?), so eventually I shot him too.
As I pointed out earlier, the issue is entirely related to the MaxDistance value. At setting of 2800 the ai is basically oblivious to anything over 130' away, including the sound of highpowered rifles killing their nearby friends.
The shot I took from across the station was about 240'. Fairly long in terms of typical game contact ranges, but definitely an easy shot in RL terms.
In order to adjust the game to react appropriately to such relative modest distances, the MaxDistance needs to be set to around 5500.
I know what you are going to say to this! :meh:

I am currently testing this out, but as you know increasing this setting seems to globally up the detection sensitivity. I have been playing with the Base/Light/Sounds Mults to accomodate this, and have been having quite good results, but I dont fully understand all the mechanics of the engine, so it would be a big help if you could let me know where you found the equations such as the one you used for Bootweight? Its very time consuming to have to try to work it out through trial and error!

Hey Gurachn,

Setting fSneakMaxDistance to 5500 does NOT work with my mod (I actually tried it and it totally broke the way sneak is supposed to work for any non long-distant-sniper-type-players. The NPC detected me even when I was standing completely still, behind a solid building, at least 200 feet from the nearest NPC. 2800 doesn't work either, nor does 2600. I would have to do a massive overhaul of my sneak settings to make 5500 work . . . and it would likely break something else . . . probably a LOT of something elses.

My SmarterAI is working great! I've just completed a major overhaul of my combat AI settings, to rebalance this module with all my other recent changes (in v.3.2 and v.3.3 beta). And the results are better than ever . . . so I have like no reason to change my current value for fSneakMaxDistance, as my sneak settings are working extremely well in my game.

You really need to just make your own mod and release it, instead of trying to get me to change my mod to suit your game play style.

I don't have the exact link to the boot weight formula . . . try searching the GECK help under "detection" . . . If I recall correctly, the formula was in the discussion section.

I don't disagree that you did a bangup job with what youve done so far, but it just still FEELS like the AI *flawlessly* knows where I am from the second they sense me to the second I keel over dead.

My POINT, if I had one, was not to BASH what you, or what FWE, or anyone else, has done with the stealth system, but merely to CONTRAST it to what I consider the BENCHMARK for stealth systems...that mod from Oblivion (darn my lousy memory for names).


I played that Oblivion stealth mod for so long that I admit freely I'm a little spoiled by it. I prefer to snipe people. When I can't snipe them anymore, I want to slip through their ranks and cut their throats and be gone again before they know I was even there.


Honestly, I've played your full version and found it pretty enjoyable overall, the same as with FWE...to the point I'm torn between which one to use, but I still say it FEELS like the AI is just still too darned omniscient.

I played on your mod for about 5 hours last night. Boosted myself to level 19, gave myself the best weapons and light armor I could, repaired them to full, had full on stealth training, silent running, no lights on, sat in the darkest parts of the subway tunnels, cranked up shadows to max so I could judge whats what, and played the sniper game as hard and fast as I could.

I WAS IMPRESSED, overall. I *did* manage to lose some guys numerous times, but it never failed...as soon as they got within a dozen feet or so of me..they magically knew right where I was, even with their backs turned, at which point they sounded the alarm and fire started pouring in from everywhere.

So please, don't misunderstand my intentions...you and Kai seem to be doing that lately. My intention is not to bash, my intention is to point out what *I* am noticing from *MY* gameplay experience.

We've already established that my rig runs this game WAY differently than most peoples, for some unknown reason (instability, faster AI processing, etc). I never suffer from 'lag' or 'microstutter' like others, I never have my HUD or my framerate lag behind, even with 30 guys on screen. All I have, reasonably, is crashes, but thats beside the point here.

All I'm saying is, your mod and FWE are the two best stealth implementations I've found yet, but I feel there is still room for minor tweaking. If you disagree with that assessment, so be it, it's your mod, and you are the final arbitrator.

I'm just trying to provide friendly feedback and call em as I see em.

*random gripe deleted for lack of point*

*edit* Forgive my ranting disjointed style of the last few days posts here and elsewhere. I'm ill, Im scatterbrained, my ducks are not in a row, but I'm trying to be helpful. My nose is getting out of joint because it seems like either my points are not getting across, or people just don't give a [censored] what I say for whatever reason, and it's beginning to grate.