Hi Arwen,
MaxDistance seems to have a global effect on detection sensitivity, hence your experiences with the increase to 5500. Since the engine allows for adjustment of each of the other individual detection determiners, I believe it should be possible to dial down those to levels where realistic sneaking is possible. I am getting pretty close to that now (with values that are actually lower than the stock ones), but need much more testing to ensure that it works in a variety of environments and conditions.
You may be right that its not possible to achieve a realistic balance with longer MaxDistance values, but I'm not sure you are. And I am definitely not happy with the ability to shoot a guy from just over 30 yards away (with your current numbers) and not have his buddies notice.


He he, actually. as I've said before, I'm not trying to get you to change your mod to suit my stye. In most cases I make these posts after I have already altered my own game files.
My intent was to give you feedback on things that I have found while playtesting your tweaks that I feel don't work in a convincing and immersive fashion. Isn't that the purpose of these threads? What you do with this feedback is entirely up to you.
I realize we have a somewhat different take on the nature of 'realism' within the game, and that many of the things I am suggesting will not be to your tastes. I had thought though, that my reports on my experiences with your mods and the mechanics of the game might be of some use in helping us both to better understand how things work in this haphazardly documented engine. I have certainly found your responses to be quite informative, even when they have differed from my own idea of how the game should work.
You seem to feel that your mod is performing exactly as you wish, though, so 'nuff said from me!

I may consider uploading my game files at some point, though frankly it seems like bloody huge amount of work to do a Mod properly. Kudos to you on your efforts and continuing support for your tweaks.
My main motivation in all this is just to get the game running to my own personal liking, primarily that things in the game world work in a fashion that doesn't conflict with my feeling and understanding of how they work in the real world.
Still a ways to go yet!

EDIT: nevermind

gtm

Question: I am looking for a mod where enemy npcs will take cover when they are being sniped. The important thing here is that I want them to do this even while they are being sniped by a rifle with silencer (eg. WMK). CEP doesn't do that, how about the AI tweaks for this mod?

[edit] Well, it looks like this doesn't directly conflict with FOOK or MMM (via your MMM patch), so I am just going to go ahead and try it

The problem was that you came off as criticizing my mod for not doing many of the very things that it not only does, but does quite well. I welcome feedback, including feedback on problems with my mod, so that I can fix them. But you were finding fault with something that is working correctly in my mod. My stealth changes are not perfect and never will be (which is why I'm constantly tweaking them), but I haven't found any mod that makes FO3's sneak as realistic as my SmarterAI module does.

I have played Oblivion . . . a LOT. And I used both "Stealth Overhaul" and "Proximity Based Sneak Penalties" in my game . . . and am amazed that anyone would feel that Oblivion, with ANY mod, could be considered the benchmark for realistic stealth.


See, this is THE problem: you (and others) feel like sneaking is too difficult with my Tweaks, because the AI can find you too easily; while Gurachn (and others) feel that sneaking is too easy with my Tweaks, because the AI doesn't detect you nearly soon enough. The way I look at it, if I'm happy with my mod, and I'm getting complaints that stuff like my stealth changes are both too easy and too difficult . . . that I must have made things pretty balanced . . . which is my goal.


12 feet, is pretty close . . . even if your hiding in shadows. Once they get that close, their "Spider Sense" kicks in. Don't laugh, as that's what I call it . . . or "The FORCE" . . . or intuition. And we all have it . . . to some degree. It's like when you know that someone is looking at you, even though you can't see them, or you get a really bad feeling just before something really bad happens.

Despite the "AI" as part of my module's name, there is no real Artificial Intelligence in ANY game . . . because true AI doesn't exist. No one's figured out how to do it yet (or some government agency is holding out on us). Until someone figures out how to make a truly thinking computer, we are stuck with games that, at best, are decent AI simulators. But I could make it so the NPC's wouldn't be able to "see" you until they practically tripped over you (I actually did that by mistake when I first began modding FO3) . . . but that was way less realistic feeling (in my opinion).


That's fine . . . and appreciated. But you have to understand that I am VERY literal . . . and I cannot even think in words, but have to translate what I read into images that my weirdly-wired brain can process. So, if you post things that translate into very negative images, I'm going to be a bit defensive in my reply.


Hey, I care . . . if I didn't would I bother replying when writing is such a lengthy chore for me?

Didn't I say the exact same thing, almost to the word, in another thread the other day?

I cannot do that in my own game (and haven't been able to do so even using much earlier versions of my SmarterAI), so something is very different between our modded game.

See my above reply to Elanthil01 . . . I can't make stealth work in the way that every player seems to think it should work. My goal in modding FO3 has always been to improve my own game, and I'm very happy with my results, because my own game is now better than ever. Version 3.3 is very close to what I consider to be a 'Final' version of my Tweaks, but I'll still keep tweaking things a bit, and adding new changes as there are sill a bunch of stuff that I haven't yet figured out how to do. I was very hesitant to release my first mod, because I didn't feel that my mod was good enough to release. But my nature is to share what I have and to help others when I can.



My Realism Tweaks is totally compatible with MMM (especially if you use my MMM compatibility patch). But my mod is NOT at all compatible with FOOK. However, you may be able to use just my SmarterAI module with FOOK . . . IF you load it last . . . and IF you fix any major conflicts in FO3Edit.



Did you? I guess quirky minds think alike.

I just noticed that if I knock someone out with a baseball bat, I can't do any damage by bashing him in the head until he gets up again. It's not the thing you did that makes them invincible for a couple of seconds, because if I hit the guy anywhere else on his body it does damage him. I checked with 'getav health', the NPC's health wouldn't lower if I hit him in the head while he is unconscious.

edit: Actually I think just hitting the torso works. Is this a known issue?

Hi Arwen,
I wanted to thank you for your tip on where to find the detection formulae. Geez, I don't know how I missed that page, but it certainly answered a lot of questions. I have plugged all the calculations into a spreadsheet (pretty much a full pages worth!) so that I can make changes to individual variables and easily determine the net change.
The one factor I'm still not totally clear on are the values for light level. You dont happen to have an idea of the number range from total darkness to noon sunshine do you?
In any case, even without this it is possible to get a clear idea of the relative effect of the other variable.

That doesn't happen in your game? Are you sure you are running with an fSneakMaxDistance of only 2200? Due to the way that the MaxDistance affects Attenuation (which impacts on all stealth elements) no headhot kills over 2200 (about 34 yards) should be able generate a successful detection score. You are not missing and hitting the wall nearby are you? (See my previous note on that)


Yeah, I hear you. Everybody has different ideas of how things should work. Theres no point in trying to satisfy everyone as it can't be done. If you can tailor it to fit your own wishes, then your mission has been accomplished. If that doesn't satisfy some of the folk who grab your mod, then they should just shut up and make there own!
As to my opinion, your mod comes closest to satisfying my ideas of what the game should be than any other I have tried (All the major overhauls and dozens of other) though, I'll be honest and say there are some things I am looking to change. The GECK is damn complex though, and though I am starting to understand small bit of it, there is still plenty that is a total mystery.Frankly I am damn impressed with the changes you have made to the game (even if they arent entirely to my tastes)!
My intent with the extensive feedback was to point out some of the issues that I encountered, not to criticize what you had done or to get you to change things to meet my tastes. The idea was that you might find out about problems you may not have encountered in your playtesting, and I would benefit from your experience with the engine and the GECK.


Excellent! Congratulations on that. With that in mind I'm thinking that continuing to pelt you with pretty radical ideas is probably not what you are looking for. I think I may just take your advice, get off my can, and knock together a collection of my changes. Bouncing my ideas and questions off a larger audience may be the best way to find solutions to some of the things I would like to do.
If/when I finally get something sorted, I will let you know and would definitely be most appreciative of any feedback you can give.
All the best

G

Nothing in my script should cause this. I have no idea why the head would be any different than the torso . . . except that it is a much larger target. Are you in VATS when this is happening . . . and if not, are you sure you are actually making contact?

Would you be willing to share this, by posting it somewhere for one to download?

That would be super groovy of you =)

Cuz we don't have enough spreadsheets already, do we?
But yeah would be..."groovy"

I am the spreadsheet master.




EDIT: apologies for derailing your thread.

No I'm not in vats. I'll check again but I think I was making contact. The head moved as it was hit and you could see blood.

That actually made me laugh out loud because I imagined you saying that in a really dramatic voice...


Yeah we're sorry...

Who could ignore an opportunity to be 'super groovy'? :tops:
Sure, when I get home I will give it a bit of a tidy (spreadsheets for my own use are often a bit organic) and drop it on Nexus.

In fact, I think I may as well upload the .esp for my changes also. Throw the lot up and open up the discussion on a wider scale.
Let people play with it, and tweak the numbers. Sort of an open project.
Sound good?

Sorry for the diversion, Arwen

Yeah, I am just talking about the SmartAI mod. It conflicts with FOOK2? How? I don't see any conflicting entries in FO3Edit.

Hey Ripple,

When I wrote that "my mod is NOT at all compatible with FOOK," I was referring to my complete Realism Tweaks, not just single modules.

I'm not using FOOK in my game, so I don't know know exactly which modules would have major conflicts, and which ones might have little or no conflicting entries.
If my SmarterAI works fine with FOOK, without any conflicts, that's great. I just haven't confirm this myself.

Got a few possible bug reports, although it could be my load order, I suppose.

I'm running your Arwen_FULL_Tweaks.esp.

I have it set to be the very last thing loaded (bottom of load order) so nothing can overwrite it.

Started the game with S.P.E.C.I.A.L.:

5/5/7/4/9/5/5.

Tag skills: Small guns, repair, medicine.

On levelup to level 2, I had 7 skill points.

*I noticed my SCIENCE skill was set at 9.

I took SWIFT LEARNER for my perk.

Leveled up to level 3, and discovered I had *NINE skill points now, instead of the EIGHT I should have according to the perk (perk says ONE additional).

*Took Daddy's Boy for my Perk.

Leveled up to Level 4, and discovered SCIENCE was still at 9. It hadn't budged.

Took INTENSE TRAINING for my perk. Chose INTELLIGENCE, which bumped it to 10.

Leveled up to level 5. Noticed my SCIENCE was still at 9.

Noticed I still only had NINE skill points. (possibly the way it should be by your formula?).


Is something in my load order interfering with your perks, maybe?

Here is what I'm loading...most of them are taken from your list of mods on your page

Fallout3.esm Anchorage.esm ThePitt.esm BrokenSteel.esm PointLookout.esm Zeta.esm HairPack.esm CALIBR.esm 20th Century Weapons.esm Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm UndergroundHideout.esp DarNifiedUIF3.esp DK_BulletTime.esp Auto Aim Fix v1.1.esp Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.esp Enhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.esp Enhanced Weather - Sneak Bonus during Storms.esp Fellout-Full.esp SniperZooming.esp Savage Wasteland - Fewer Gun Wielding Maniacs.esp T3T_OutcastTechSupport.esp Gore_No_More.esp Less_Blood.esp Realistic Interior Lighting.esp BypassOpAnchorage.esp GrenadeLauncher_functional.esp HBs Wasteland Tent.esp Menu Based Hacking & Picking.esp RRRU +4.esp Achievement Remover [All].esp Colossus Outcast.esp colossus BOS.esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Vendor).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (NPC_Settler).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Raider).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (RivetCity).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Brotherhood_Outcast).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (SuperMutant).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Vault 101).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Chinese Ghoul).esp 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Talon_Regulator).esp Arwen_FULL_Tweaks.esp  Total active plugins: 42 Total plugins: 42

Hey Elanthil01,

Thanks so much for the feedback!

Their is a minor bug with the Swift Learner perk: The information that was displayed for the perk was wrong (but the perk itself worked as I intended), you gain + 2 more skill points to distribute at level up . . . but there is only 1 rank for this perk. This has been corrected in v.3.3.

I have no idea why you are not receiving the +5 point increase in Science skills. The only thing that I changed in the Daddy'd Boy/Girl Perk was increasing the requirement of INT from 4 to 6. I've used the Daddy's Girl Perk in my own game and the +5 increase to both Science and Medicine has always worked just fine for me.

I'm not familiar with every mod you are using, but the Achievement Remover [All].esp should always load LAST.
My Gore_No_More.esp should now load after my Tweaks, if you want no chance of dismemberment. If you load it before my Tweaks, there will still be a 5% chance (due to my Localized Damage module).

Actually it should be loaded first(or atleast pretty high up). The reasoning behind that is, if some other mod alters an affected vanilla quest in some way that is important to the mod, archivement remover will overwrite it and consequently break the mod.

Really?

In the mod's ReadMe Justin has: "Load order: Load it last, I'd say, as any other mods including references to any edited records will most likely contain the default info and will re-add the AddAchievements thus negating this mod.

For instance, v.3.3. of my Tweaks includes all the Skill BobbleHead scripts, as I made a minor edit to them that just reduces the number of reward skill points (but I didn't edit the Achievement reward line). So which way would work best with my mod? I'm about to release v.3.3 and am writing the ReadMe right now. Should I also edit (as in delete the 'Achievement 50' line)?

EDITED: Kai, I wasn't using the the Achievement Remover mod, but I just checked it out and see the problem . . . and you are correct (as usual) . . . thanks for pointing that out! It the Achievement Remover mod loads after my Tweaks, it will overwrite my BobbleHead skill point changes.

But I'm still wondering if I should ';' out the 'Achievement 50' line in my modified BH scripts.

Well he states in his readme pretty much what I'm saying.
If you load your mod after Archivement Remover, you'll overwrite his changes and negate his mod. But it works the other way around too. If you load Archivement Remover after your mod, it will overwrite your changes and negate your mod.

So as I said, Archievement Remover should always be loaded way high up, since (usually) when you overwrite something you do it for good reason. That's why there's also a compatibility patch between FWE and Archievement Remover.


Now I think you have a small dilemma on your hands. Because as far as I remember, your mod doesn't require FOSE, that means people could actually use your mod and still play on Live and get archievements.
You can simply include the "fix"(which is what I personally would do), but that will definitly stop people from getting certain archievements when using your mod.

Thanks for clarifying that so well.

I hate dilemmas (even small ones) . . . if I just ';' out the 'Achievement 50' line in my modified BH scripts, will that cause any problems (other than the fact that some people my not like that they now longer get any Skill BH achievement points)?

One more little question: What is the "fix"? You've totally lost me on that one. I must have missed that memo.

Removing the Archievements is the "fix" I ment


But yeah you can just put a ';' infront of those script parts, that will stop them from running and won't break anything.

; is often used in scripts to allow the scripter to add text after a piece of a script which explain what it does, without interfering with the script.