Arwen, I hate to squeak, but would you consider redoing the carry weight formula to be a bit more...forgiving?

I had like 6 strength on a char and could only carry a total of 105 pounds.

My character approximates me. I consider myself strong, but honestly, my 'frame' does a lot of the work (heavy bone structure..what my friends call the 'Uncle Arnie' frame), and yet I can squat over 300 pounds, bench press over 200, and, when I was in the Army, had at one point, to carry a 200 pound telephone pole section ON MY SHOULDERS as part of training, to simulate combat-carrying a wounded human (the average human male back in the 80s was determined, by the army, to weigh around 200 pounds with their combat gear).

Now, that aside, a typical carry pack for a modern soldier contains between 65 and 100 pounds of gear, ranging from clothing to tent-setting gear, to a bedroll, to ammunition and medical supplies.

Thanks to the LCE belt and straps, and the clever design of the backpack, a 140 pound man can, on average, carry his backpack, rifle, a pistol, four grenades, 6 to 8 clips of ammo ready to go on his belt, another 10 clips in his backpack, a radio, two LAW rockets, an M203 mounted under his weapon, and a cartouche box for the M203 ammo...and still move decently, although its murder on your back and feet.

Thats WELL over 150 pounds of gear, all carried on my little (back in the 80s I was scrawny) body.

Even in Boyscouts, they teach you that a properly framed backpack with proper straps (shoulders and waist) can allow you to carry 100 pounds or more easily for long periods.

So, its not beyond my realm of belief to say that an 'average' man would carry 150 pounds, and then each step up would add 25 pounds.

so a 10 str character, in my way of thinking, would be able to lug around at least 275 pounds of gear, and with a backpack, 350, and in power armor...500.


Anyway, its your mod, so, I'll shut my yap now

A little request Arwen, for the next major update. Can you make a module which would skip the beginning of the vault part which is compatible with your mod? I am asking this because the mod "Alternate start for roleplayers" have alot of issues like being unabe to acces some of the part of world

Well, no . . . because I think it is perfect exactly where it is. But what I have done in v.3.2 is that all armor (including helmets) increases your carrying capacity when worn . . . by 50% of the weight of the armor. (With Power Armor, it increases by 75% of the armor weight). This simulates the way that armor is less cumbersome when worn than when carried.

You have to understand that I'm trying to make it so my mod can simulate semi-realistic carrying capacities for a range of characters from wimps to weight lifters (and I'm somewhat limited by the game design).
The Default range [STR 1-10] is only 160 to 250 lbs (a range of 1.6X). My Realism Tweaks changes this to a much more realistic 30 to 165 lbs (5.5X).

Carrying capacity's greatest impact is not so much a limit on how much you can carry . . . it is a limit on how much you can carry and still be able to run. I was a collegiate athlete and I don't know anyone who can run any distance at a speed of 6.5 MPH while carrying 165 pounds. (which is the running speed/weight limit for a character with a STR of 10 with my mod).

If you want a large carrying capacity, make a character with a STR=10, which will add 60 pounds to your limit.
You can also add a backpack mod, which will increase this by another 50 pounds (remember, in the default game you are not actually using a backpack).
And you can take the "Strong Back" Perk, which adds another 30 pounds.
All total, using a STR=10, with a Backpack, with the "Strong Back" Perk: you end up with a carrying capacity of 165+50+30=245 pounds . . . and you can still RUN at full speed up to that weight limit. Plus with v.3.2, if you're wearing 50 pounds of Power Armor, your capacity increases by another 37 pounds, to 282 pounds, which should be enough for anyone. (Although your character's speed wearing 50 lbs of PA will take a 20% hit).

I live in the mountains and I hike, snowshoe, and ski with packs all the time. I have NEVER seen a Boy Scout carrying a 100 pound pack. Even the AMC Hut Crews rarely carry more than 80 to 90 pounds.
I would love to see someone try to run up hill very far with a 100 lb pack . . . a 350 pound load would be impossible, for all but a superhuman being.

Hi Arwen,
I've been continuing to look at the issue of Skill/Accuracy/Damage we discussed earlier.
I have a fair bit of experience with small arms and small arms coaching, so I have a decent idea of how shooters of different abilities tend to perform.
I found myself a nice little range (a clean whitish wall with about 30m. of open space in front) and proceeded to put rounds downrange with a variety of weapons and SG skill levels. It's pretty short, but that seems to be about the limit from which you can see the impacts, and in any case, the simplistic ballistics modeled in the game doesn't seem to take bullet/energy drop into account. Although the model is simple, once I got my head around the equations I realized that it is fairly easy to make fairly precise adjustments to the in-game accuracy.
Basically, by firing off enough rounds at a given range to make a decent estimate of the group size for a given weapon, then adjusting the fGunSpread? and weapon Min Spread values I was able to come up with what I feel are values that give a decent (within the scope of the game) approximation of how the weapons actually shoot.
:gun:

In terms of the skill element, I found that bumping the Base and Mult values up .6/-.006 gave a good feel for the difference in the shooting ability between a new recruit and a sniper candidate. In game terms this also widens the range, making SG skill a bigger factor in accuracy.
In terms of the accuracy of the weapons themselves, I felt the stock values were pretty far off the mark. Pistols were shooting a bit tighter than they should so I generally tweaked the Min values up slightly. The SMG and especially the assault rifles were WAY more inaccurate than they should be. It's pretty clear that the game designers envisioned a world where the player was a bullet-sponge-tank with buckets of ammo, who would be wading in at point blank range at full auto. Your mod definitely doesn't fit this model, and that sort of behavior would get you killed even if you had enough rounds to support it. Squeezing off single shots or short bursts is the way to go.
In any case, I dialed down the assault rifles to .3 and even this makes them a bit less accurate than they probably should be given the typically short encounter ranges in the game. SMGs a bit higher.
One major difference that I felt needed to be addressed was the area of iron sights VS. firing from the hip. Unless you are Buffalo Bill, firing without reference to the sights is a waste of ammo. Bumping the IronSights Mult up to .9 is just about right I think. This equates to the difference between hitting in about a 3 foot circle firing a 10mm from the hip from about 25', or banging out about a 12" group. This is pretty much what you might expect from an average shooter.

After I got the sights to about where I thought they should be, I turned my attention to damage. First of all I looked at the relative damage of the various rounds used in the game. That was pretty easy by comparing the published muzzle energy of the various rounds. I used the 10mm damage as a base value, then adjusted the others from there. As I suspected the game values were well off. The 5.56 of the stock assault rifle actually does a point less damage per round than the 10mm even though it's considerable less powerful. Its true value should be bumped from 8 to 16. The .44 Magnum on the other hand was rated at a considerably over powered 35 points of damage (designers watching too much Dirty Harry, I suspect) where it actually should rate only about a 14. The 7.62 sniper was also rated a bit higher than it should, but as there are some very hot match rounds, I decided that it could stay where it is.
The .32 used for both the hunting rifle and the .32 pistol posed a bit of a problem because the game doesn't clarify what sort of .32 ammo is used (and there are a lot) and the same ammo was used for two very different guns. For the hunting rifle, .32 Winchester Special would give numbers that match the 25 of the stock game, so I kept that and didn't monkey with the pistol at all. No rationalizing that one, I'm afraid.

The next issue was the damage multiplier. I have always been bothered by the fact that humans in the game could survive clean 10mm shots to the head.
Far from the popgun that most people imagine the 10mm to be, it is actually one of the most powerful auto handgun loads there is. Hotter than a .357 Magnum and more than a third more powerful than a .45! So the fact that Raiders were taking more than a couple in the brain and still trash talking me seemed well out of line. After a few dozen hours of tweaking DamMults and Actor Head damageMults I finally settled on 3.5 for both the general and actor head mults.
This means that almost no human will survive a head shot. Super mutants and such are tougher, but they should be.
Overall this gives a feeling that I think best reflects the real world damage of these guns. Along with this I also considerably reduced the affect SG skill has on damage. Using these numbers, high skill shooters will be able to hit more often than low skill ones, but will do almost the same damage when they do. I think this is more realistic, and better it reflects how things worked in the pure RPG Fallouts 1 and 2.

As you may surmise, these changes significantly alter the play of the game. It is definitely easier to kill baddies, but you can die almost instantly too. It is a very different experience, especially since I am playing it with the MMM increased spawns, your full realism tweaks and another mod that significantly reduces loot and ammo.
You definitely have to play smart, sneak a lot, snipe targets from much farther away and use cover effectively. Tougher, but I am finding it really satisfying.
I have taken a character up to about level 10 (a lot of play using reduced xpr) on hard and the revised numbers seem to work quite well for both low and mid levels.

One issue though, that I have encountered with the damage changes is the issue of headshots against power armored enemies. The way the stock helmets work doesn't give enough protection. Do you know any way of overcoming this? Perhaps a script for power armor helms to alter the Actors head damage Mult?

Anyway, this has gone longer than I had intended. I had intended just to give you a brief follow-up to our earlier GECK gun numbers discussion! Oh well?My aplogies for the excessive length.
I know you have enough on your plate at the moment trying to get 3.2 wrapped up, but if you are interested in revisiting the issue at a later date I would be happy to.
Good luck on getting 3.2 out smoothly. Definitely looking forward to that!
All the best

I looked through your weapons .esp and I still don't understand. If your repair skill in the early game only allow your character to repair items up to 30-40% condition (60-70% damaged) and all the items you find are 40-60% condition, then how is repair skill useful? I never actually repaired any equipment I found from raiders (which is a pretty hefty portion of equipment in the early game) because I couldn't. Am I missing some other changes you made?


That's interesting about encumbrance, I thought armor seemed to have a pretty extreme effect on movement, but I couldn't tell if it was just my imagination. And FWIW I like the way your mod handles carry weight. Elanthil01, you may know this already but you can change the carry weight yourself by altering the value for the "fAVDCarryWeightsBase" or "fAVDCarryWeightMult" using the GECK or FO3Edit.


This sounds great, I'm looking forward to the next version!

gurachn:

Have you released these settings as a mod? I'd be interested in trying them out.

Hey Gurachn,

In v.3.2 I'm using 0.7 and -0.007, which is what I did my tin can shooting test with, and which seemed about right to me (but I'll give your values a test after v.3.2 is out, although I'm pretty sure that I tried those earlier).


At this point I'm trying to touch as few weapons as possible (outside of the melee weapons), just to keep my mod somewhat compatible with other weapon mods (but this is becoming more and more difficult with each release). So I've only changed the values on a few small guns that I wanted to add my pushaway effect to, or that I felt really needed some tweaking. So far this includes only the Shotguns, Sniper Rifle, and Lincoln's Repeater. But in v.3.2, I'm adding the Assault Rifle . . . mostly because I also felt that it's spread was too high (I'm now using 0.7 and 4.0). At this point I've only change the Shotguns' Base Damage values (which I reduced, because I increased their projectile count quite a bit).


I messed around with this quite a bit, but never ended up with a good solution. I'm not sure that I understand the formula's results correctly, but I think that the default values (fGunSpreadIronSightsMult=-0.65) result in a decreased in spread of 65% when you are aiming (using IronSights). That seems pretty high to me, but I'm no gun expert . . . and I don't want to overbalance things against the NPCs, who don't always aim. Do you mean -0.9, which would result in 90% reduction in spread when aiming (if I'm interpreting this correctly)?


In v.3.2 in my Survival module, I've totally redone the way the Damage calculations work. Skills are a LOT more of a factor in increasing the amount of DAM you can do with a weapon. Instead of increasing the global weapon damage multiplier (which is what I did in all my previous versions), I left the multiplier at 1.0 and altered the Damage Skill Bonus settings.

With the default values, using a 10mm in perfect condition [9DAM]: a Small Gun skill of 10 = only 4 DAM; a Small Gun skill of 25 = only 5 DAM; a Small Gun skill of 50 = only 6 DAM; a Small Gun skill of 75 = only 7 DAM; and a Small Gun skill of 100 = 9 DAM.

With the my changes, the same 10mm in perfect condition results: with a Small Gun skill of 10 = 8 DAM; with a Small Gun skill of 25 = 10 DAM; with a Small Gun skill of 50 = 13 DAM; with a Small Gun skill of 75 = 17 DAM; and a Small Gun skill of 100 = 21 DAM. [Edited: DAM amounts were revised on 01/04, because of changes in final v.3.2 values.]

On top of this, my Localize Damage module increases head shot damage a bit more (I change both the multiplier AND the Health Percent values]. And then my Armor module globally increases the AR of all armor by 50%. It's a bit complex, but I'm REALLY happy with the results . . . for the NPCs, the Creatures, and my player. My own v.3.2 Beta game is more deadly than ever.


I'm also guessing that the only possible way to add a helmet bonus is with a script (if it is even possible). As far as I know, no one has yet done this successfully (and writing such a complex scripts is beyond my scripting ability).


Thanks! You can "revisit the issue" at any point, I just don't want to include much more in v.3.2, as I really just want to finish this svcker up and get it out there for others to enjoy. [I took most of the day off to go skiing, as we had some nice fresh snow that I had to go play in. But I'm working on my mod tonight and will try my best to wrap it up by late tomorrow.]

This would actually be a LOT of work for me to do. I'm not opposed to it . . . I just have not even considered adding any "alternate start' type mod, as this is not something that I felt needed fixing. I'd much rather download and use a mod that works well, than try to make one (it's way easier). Several other mods seem to do this, and I was under the impression that "Alternate Start - Roleplayers" was a very solid mod (it has had like 36,000 downloads and has received over 200 endorsemants). I have it listed on my mod list, as I really like it.

I used .7/-.007 for most of my testing and didn't have a major problem with it until I did a round of testing with the sniper rifle. The scope gives you a much clearer picture of how much sway the weapon has. The difference between using .7 and .6 is only about a 2-3 inch larger group at 90 feet, but I think the lower figure is closer to what we should expect.


The stock Combat shotgun is extremely overpowered. The spreadsheet I use for calculating muzzle energy shows it around a third higher than typical 00 buck loads. I noticed that you upped the pellet count to 12, making it about a number 1 shot which has quite a bit lower penetration than the stock 00 buckshot (probably wouldn't be able to go through a SMs skull, as it generally wont punch into a boar skull). I dropped the shottie damage down to 30 with a 9 pellet load, but with my increased damage numbers that is still more than enough to drop a SM with a point blank blast to the noggin.
The Assault rifles are ridiculously nerfed in vanilla both in terms of damage per round and especially accuracy. I couldnt test beyond about 95' feet as the impact doesn't seem to show beyond that, but at that range in RL a decent shooter can put all rounds into the bull. I was tempted to go lower than .3, but in the end I thought I decided not to encroach too much on the realm of the sniper rifle. Also I figure after a few hundred years, those barrels have probably taken a bit of wear and may not be as tight as when they made em.

On the subject of condition, I had a go at tweaking those also and while doing so I noticed that you were using .2/-.4 for the CondBase/Mult. You probably already caught it, but this will actually result in a negative Cond Penalty from SG50+.
I ended up going with .275/-.275 btw.


Yup, that's exactly what it means, and shooting from a good firing position (as opposed to plinking from the hip) definitely shows that much of an increase in accuracy.
You're right that most of the raiders and other jet/addled wasteland scum don't always aim, and thank god for that. If they didn't it would be suicide to even consider taking on groups of them! They have numbers on their side. That is more than enough balance when you tweak the guns to shoot the way they should.


Well, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works in 3.2, but I suspect we will have to agree to differ on the damage issue. I am pretty much dead set against damage relating to level, as it just doesn't feel right to me, and doesn't follow what happens in most RPGs. The ability to fairly easily adjust the game experience to suit personal tastes, though, is one thing I love about the GECK, so with a bit of tweaking we can both have the flavor we like.


RH in his excellent IronSight mod has a script that allows you to change the Iron sights gun spread in game, so I suspect it may be possible to script a way to make the helmet actually protect the head (by changing the Actor head damage Mult). I have posted a query to the GECK forum, but no bites yet.


Yup, didn't mean to dump this on you just as you are finishing off 3.2, but I wanted to get you some feedback before the holidays end and RL rears its ugly head.
(Damn, no skiable snow out here yet unless I want to fly to Hokkaido!)
All the best

G

Any news on mod progress Arwen?

Ok, here’s my latest progress report:

I didn’t have nearly enough free time today to wrap things up (after returning home from skiing yesterday, I shoveled snow until dark, and then we received another 8 inches of snow last night . . . so I spent most of the morning shoveling my long driveway yet again, and then I had to take care of some other RL chores that I had been neglecting).

The other thing is that my Perk changes became much more extensive than I had originally intended . . . I ended up making changes to ~80% of the default perks, and also created a few completely new perks. After some play testing, the only real issue that I ran into was that my increased requirements really limit your choices when you're at lower skill levels. But my perk changes seem to mesh very well with the rest of my Tweaks . . . so what I've decided to do is create 5 or 6 additional perks just for low level characters . . . sort of like a little set of rookie perks, which will have lower skill requirements (but also lower rewards).

I just finished testing the adjustments to my sneak tweaks (part of my SmarterAI module), which make it a bit more difficult now to remain undetected (especially in daylight and in all but the dimmest interiors. I also increased the boot weight penalty a bit (now it is even more difficult to sneak when you’re wearing heavier armor). So far everything has play tested out very well.

So the main thing I have left to do is to create the 5 or 6 new additional perks, which should only take a few hours. And then I have to put in a couple of more hours to do some ‘final’ extensive play testing. If that goes well, v.3.2 will be ready to release. (I'll still have to spend a couple of hours updating the ReadMe, making the FULL_Tweaks version, and making the archive.)

Oh, and I've changed my mind again about the new module. I’ve decided that it will work best if I just make a new Skills Module (as I originally planned); which will include my Derived Skill changes (which was part of the Main Tweaks module in v.3.1), plus my new Perk changes, plus my new Book Skill changes. I'm guessing that most of the people who would want to use my Derived Skill changes, would also want my new Perk changes (and my Book Skills are interconnected to my perk changes). Plus both the Derived Skill changes and my Perk changes are best used in a new (or lower level) game (so it would be easy just not to use that single module, if you were well into you current game).

I realize that this version is WAY overdue . . . and that people have been patiently waiting for it. I've done a ton of work on it this week, and I'm VERY close to being done . . . but I want this one to be a solid release, so I need to make sure that it is done right (or as close to 'right' as possible). If my ‘final’ play testing turns up no new bugs or unbalanced issues, I should be able to release this sometime late tomorrow (unless something unexpected comes up, and I just don’t have the free time I need to complete it).

Few questions Arwen. First on something I've been experiencing using some of the mods I've installed into my current playthrough, mainly Arwen's Tweaks (Full Module, v3.1) and FWE. Don't know whether my experience was by purpose or something relating to a incompatibility; basically I can't run shooting at my enemies, only run and halt to a walk when I feel the need to fire. So I don't know whether as stated in my previous sentence and if caused primarily by my installed modules? And from past peeks at the your Tweaks' readme I can't really find anything relating to this.

Secondly, about your upcoming release, what type of lower level games are your refering to, just to clarify? Currently my character is at least level 5-6.

Edit: Load Order for first question, if needed:

[X] Fallout3.esm[X] Project Beauty HD version.esm[X] CRAFT.esm[X] CALIBR.esm[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esm[X] Mart's Mutant Mod.esm[X] RoadWardens.esm[X] Destruction.esm[X] FOOK2 - Main.esm[X] FOOK2 - [[censored]] World And Neighbourhood Kit.esm[X] 20th Century Weapons.esm[X] RH_IRONSIGHTS.esm[X] StreetLights.esm[X] Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow.esm[X] Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch.esm[X] DarNifiedUIF3.esp[X] DUIF3Extras.esp[X] CRAFT - Activation Perk.esp[X] Stealthboy Recon Armor - CRAFT.esp[X] FOOK2 - Main.esp[X] FOOK2 - [EVE] Energy Visuals Enhanced.esp[X] MyFOOK2 - Black & White Tranquility Lane.esp[X] FOOK2 - [DESTRUCTION] Main.esp[X] FOOK2 - [DESTRUCTION] Main - Statics.esp[X] PB FOOK2 - Main.esp[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Main File.esp[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - Optional Sneak Msgs.esp[X] FWE - Reduced Radiation.esp[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - FOOK Support.esp[X] FO3 Wanderers Edition - UFP Support.esp[X] EVE.esp[X] EVE - FWE Master Release.esp[X] WeaponModKits.esp[X] EVE - FWE with WeaponModKits.esp[X] WeaponModKits - FOOK.esp[X] WeaponModKits - FWE Master Release.esp[X] 1Animated Nightvision goggles.esp[X] 1PipboyPDA.esp[X] 7_HolsterForHandGunsV1_1.esp[X] Princess Better Prompts v1pt1.esp[X] Stealth Kills Enabled.esp[X] KillableKidsOptional.esp[X] Gifts4Kids.esp[X] Rivens_Eyescapes.esp[X] SniperZooming.esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Vendor).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (NPC_Settler).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Raider).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Talon_Regulator).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Brotherhood_Outcast).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Chinese Ghoul).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (SuperMutant).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (Vault 101).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (RivetCity).esp[X] 20th Century v4 ALIVE (TEST Container).esp[X] D.C. Confidential.esp[X] BusworldV1.05d.esp[X] colossus BOS.esp[X] Colossus Outcast.esp[X] Portable Turrets.esp[X] BoogeymansHoodALTcombo.esp[X] 1alexscorpionsnipergear.esp[X] NAPA.esp[X] blanket.esp[X] Tankless Flamer.esp[X] Solas' Leander Equipment.esp[X] Enhanced Weather - Rain and Snow in Fallout.esp[X] Enhanced Weather - Weather Sounds in Interiors.esp[X] Enhanced Weather - Sneak Bonus during Storms.esp[X] Fellout-Full.esp[X] Fellout-pipboylight.esp[X] StreetLights - Wasteland.esp[X] lessviewdistance.esp[X] DCInteriors_ComboEdition.esp[X] Megaton House and Theme Overhaul.esp[X] FireLightFix.esp[X] BoSPatrols.esp[X] Phalanx-MainFollowerModule.esp[X] Phalanx-DogmeatEnemyTweaks.esp[X] Phalanx-PerksAndStims.esp[X] Phalanx-OPTIONAL-WeaponChange.esp[X] Phalanx-OPTIONAL-WeaponRepairLists.esp[X] Phalanx-OPTIONAL-VendorChanges.esp[X] Phalanx-TGBlank-K9AlternateStart.esp[X] Mart's Mutant Mod.esp[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - Hunting & Looting.esp[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FOOK2.esp[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE Master Release.esp[X] Mart's Mutant Mod - FWE with EVE.esp[X] S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Mutants[addon for MMM].esp[X] RoadWardens.esp[X] RoadWardensMMM.esp[X] Raider preset beta.esp[X] PB MMM HD.esp[X] KH_FWE Fixes.esp[X] KH_FWE Tweaks.esp[X] KH_NoAmmoWeight.esp[X] CRI-Squad-new.esp[X] RealFragGrenade3.esp[X] Slower Degradation (-80%).esp[X] Arwen_FULL_Tweaks.esp[X] Choose your own hairstyle (load this last on FOMM).esp

I did some more target practice with a sniper rifle (in perfect condition) with my Small Gun skills at 12, 50 and 75 . . . and my settings give me results that I'm pretty satisfied with. Using 0.7 and -0.007 does not (in my opinion) result in enough spread penalty when your SG skills are below 50.


I agree that they are overpowered, but my solution is to reduce the base DAM and increase the Projectile count; but I've also reduced the range of the Shotgun Shell projectiles by ~1/3 (since these are pellets and not rifle bullets).


Yes, I did. In v.3.2, I'm using 0.20 and -0.20.


Yes it does . . . at least in the ones I've played. In Oblivion you couldn't inflict nearly the amount of damage at lower skills than when you reached higher skills. As I tried to explain in my previous post, I'm doing this in a way that makes higher weapon skills give you a DAM bonus, instead of making lower skill result in a weapon that you can't defend yourself with. With my changes, even at a SG skill of only 10, a 10mm (in perfect condition) will do 8 DAM (which is nearly the DAM that you get in the default game at a SG skill of 100) . . . and that doesn't include my head shot multiplier increase. Remember, my weapon skill changes work both ways, so not only will you become more deadly with weapons as your skills increase . . . so will the NPCs. If you don't include DAM increases as skills improve, all you have left are spread penalties for lower skills . . . and you cannot set these low enough to be enough of a penalty by themselves, without really messing up the gameplay. And, without imposing enough of a penalty/bonus for the skill differences, you remove the incentive to increase your weapon skills (which is a huge part of the game).

[Edited: DAM amounts were revised because of changes in final v.3.2 values.]

1.) Either use FWE of my Realism Tweaks . . . do not use both . . . they are not compatible (even though my SmarterAI module has be integrated into FWE).
2.) my mod is NOT compatible with FOOK.
3.) EVE needs to load after my Tweaks.
4.) My mod is not compatible with Real Frag Grenades . . . I change all the values that it does (but a bit differently, plus my mod includes Death Force changes).
5.) You're using a number of mods that I'm not familiar with, so I don't know if they are compatible or not (follow my sig link to my FO mod list).


You can probably use my Full_Tweaks, but your skills are going to take a major hit and I'm not sure what my perk and skill books changes might do (it would depend on what perks and skill books you have used). I'm guessing that if you're above a Level 2 (or 3 at most), and you don't want to start a new game, that you may not want to use my new Skills module.

Thanks for replying,

From what you've said my problem does well possibly lay with incompatibilities. Though I'm at a loss of what know to do about what you've stated, I knew that your SmarterAI was intergrated into FWE, but I believe the current FWE's Arwen Tweaks' SmarterAI is v2.8 from the readme - along with other mods like Alternative Start - Roleplayers, correct me if I'm wrong. And could it be safe to play with both being active, supported by FWE old verison as to compared to v3.1, like say any LO cofinguration that can be implemented? As for FOOK2 and Real Frag Grenades, I'll probaly do away with Real Frag Grenades (thanks for the heads up once again). And again I'm not sure what to do with FOOK2? As I've been playing with this since my first and previous playthrough and througly enjoy the diversity in armaments. Also, I really haven't expirenced as much CTD as I've have with my previous character before the installtion of many of the miscellaneous mods and FWE and your Tweaks.

For perks have ones like Intense Training (1), Lawbringer & Regulator (Alternative Start, being a regulator), Daddy's Boy & Gun Nut (both being some time of rank), Rad Regeneration (one from Moria's quest). For SPECIAL and Skills here's a few screens along with my perks for better detail and for the sake of convenience:
http://img6.imageshack.us/i/screenshot1ar.png/|http://img5.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2vk.png/|http://img193.imageshack.us/i/screenshot3sd.png/|http://img204.imageshack.us/i/screenshot4nq.png/|http://img193.imageshack.us/i/screenshot5w.png/

Once again thanks for any and all help you can and have gave Arwen. :thumbsup:

The FWE readme also states not to run Arwen's Smarter AI in addition to FWE. You must rely on FWE's integrated version.

gothemasticator

One or the other, then. Fine by me, only problem is whether or not FWE's uninstalltion is a hassle or less of it, mainly being files in the assets file of FWE (the meshes, textures,and sounds). Though I feel a little indecisive in matter of choice. I'm also aware that FWE has a thread on these forum, and could consult there if needed. Also, based on the screens in my last post, what can I expect on what type of impact it'll have on my character's SPECIAL, Skills, and Perks (for Perks, commonsense would yield the removal of those certain perks FWE intergrated from the game being the obvious)? And just to clarify desicion what would happen if I uninstalled Arwen's Tweaks instead of FWE, while looking at the effect on my character's SPECIAL, Skills, and Perks and as well as gameplay mechanics (mechanics being simpily, the better or worse, or even in detail if wanted)?

Edit: On a side note, any plans that FWE will further intergrate newer verison(s) Arwen's Tweaks in the future?

While I was play testing v.3.2 last night (my own beta version), I came upon a dead Raider, who had a hunting rifle. Its condition was roughly 40%, yet I was able to repair it up to 50%. And my character was fresh out of the vault, at Level 2, with a repair skill of 16 (Repair is one of my Tagged skills). And I was using my new Skills module, which results in even lower Derived skills than with v.3.1. The other thing is that, even if you have really low repair skills, most traders can repair items up to at least 50%. Plus you're not taking into account that the Raider's equipment will deteriorate as it is used.

Hi Arwen

A decent sniper rifle is capable of one minute of angle accuracy (1MOA), meaning that at one hundred metres it will group all shots within one inch. I am guessing that you did your test at less than 100 feet so, all rounds should be hitting pretty much exactly the same spot. If we look at assault rifles, the 5.56 M16 currently used by the US Military comes from the factory capable of about 3-4 MOA, so at 100 feet it should also be putting all rounds within about an inch or two. At around 90 feet with a 50 skill SG I was showing about 5-7 inches with the Sniper and about 10-14 with the assault using my numbers. Still high, but livable within game I think.
I appreciate what you are saying about the skill difference, but the fact is that at FO3 typical engagement ranges even a beginner wouldnt have much trouble getting headshots in RL . And the reason we see such close engagements is that over about 50' the weapons are so inaccurate you cant hit squat.
At about 100 yards the difference between a 12 Skill shooter and a 75 skill shooter is likely to be a few feet. Using my current numbers, I often engage targets at close to 100 meters with my 50 skill character, and believe me the weapon sway is a big factor. A 12 skill guy would have no chance of a hit at that range.
Not only do I find the longer range more realistic feeling, but with the increases I made to the damage equations, I find that getting in close is just suicide. Needless to say I do a lot of sniping and ambushing and basically skulking behind cover like a rat.


The range issue is something I have been looking at only recently, as up until last week I hadn't even known where to find it!
I haven't been able to find a definitive measure for how long the range units actually are, so I have tried to make an estimate, which I hope you can confirm. I read somewhere that the character was 128 units tall, so given an average height of about 5'10, this would work out to 22 units to the foot. The stock range of 10,000 units for weapons would equate therefor to about 450' feet. Am I about right?
If so, since buckshot is only effective out to about a max of 50 yards, then you should be looking at a max range of about 3200 units.

Yes it does . . . at least in the ones I've played. In Oblivion you couldn't inflict nearly the amount of damage at lower skills than when you reached higher skills. As I tried to explain in my previous post, I'm doing this in a way that makes higher weapon skills give you a DAM bonus, instead of making lower skill result in a weapon that you can't defend yourself with. With my changes, even at a SG skill of only 10, a 10mm (in perfect condition) will do 8 DAM (which is nearly the DAM that you get in the default game at a SG skill of 100) . . . and that doesn't include my head shot multiplier increase. Remember, my weapon skill changes work both ways, so not only will you become more deadly with weapons as your skills increase . . . so will the NPCs. If you don't include DAM increases as skills improve, all you have left are spread penalties for lower skills . . . and you cannot set these low enough to be enough of a penalty by themselves, without really messing up the gameplay. And, without imposing enough of a penalty/bonus for the skill differences, you remove the incentive to increase your weapon skills (which is a huge part of the game).

It seems that primarily melee-focused RPGs like Oblivion have a greater relationship between skill and damage. This makes sense I think, because a skilled swordsman will definitely be able to poke his sword into more important bits than a beginner.
With ranged based RPGs like Fallout 1 and 2 the model seems to be that skill effects accuracy only. With guns, a trained sniper and a 10 year old kid are pretty much equally deadly. In gun RPGs higher level characters typically get much better guns, which do more damage.
As I said earlier, if you increase the weapon damage significantly, you increase the necessity to engage at longer range in order to survive (currently my 10th level character will almost certainly be killed/incapacitated by more than a couple of rifle bullets, which seems reasonable). At increased range the difference between low skill and higher skill characters is greatly magnified. I am finding that my current experience mimics very closely how I fought in the earlier Fallout RPGs

One rather noobish question though that just ocurred to me however...
I should know this, but do NPCs hitpoints increase with the players level? :huh:
I am starting to get the impression that even raiders seem to be tougher now that I am around 10th level.
If this is the case I may have to reconsider my views on skill and damage somewhat.

I haven't really considered it. To be honest I am only just starting to get a grip on the GECK, and only within the fairly limited context of tweaking some of Arwen's values.
If there is any interest I would certainly be willing to pass along what I have, but in any case, this thread is for Arwen's mod.

Hi. I'm just popping in again to give my two cents on weapon damage and accuracy again.

Gurachn,

I just don't think that realism can be a primary concern for designing the relationships between weapon stats, skills, and damage. You are free to wish for a realistic gun sim game, but FO3 is not that game. FO3, even with Arwen's mods, remains an rpg, with stat-building as a primary game mechanic. Balance of the game mechanic is primary. Now, the game-balance can be tweaked various ways depending on what people consider fun and challenging. That's why Arwen's approach is one of several which are popular.

However, realistic gun simulation would require changing nearly everything about the game on a basic level. In real-life, for instance, guns, even the weakest ones, can be lethal in one shot. In addition, wounds from non-lethal shots often leave lifelong scars and disabilities. Attempting to make gun damage, accuracy, and the player skill-level mirror real-life without changing all the related game-mechanics just unbalances things IMO.

Arwen has repeatedly stated that her use of the word "realism" has a special connotation and meaning within the context of FO3, and her goal is not real-life gun simulation.

I'm certainly not complaining about all your back-and-forth helpful discussion concerning how spread works and the intricacies of the math. I'm just pointing out that you keep harping on an issue (real-life gun characteristics) that 1. Arwen has stated is not her goal and 2. doesn't take into account the wide-ranging related changes that would be necessary to achieve actual real-world behaviors.

gothemasticator

Personally, I just think all guns need a little less spread (except of course those at zero already), have spread affected by condition (the rifling borked perhaps, or the barrel off-true), etc.

I know the headshot edition is supposedly implemented in FWE, but it certainly doesnt feel like it.

I ran a vanilla game yesterday up to Minefield, with the Headshot edition of auto aim removal installed, and using a sniper rifle, I one shotted Arkansas from the CONCRETE BLOCK at the edge of town.

Then I ran a character with the same weapon stats (100% repairs via cheating) and the same skill (88 small weapons) using FWE and no other mods at all (not even WMK). I couldnt hit the twerp until I was by the merry go round on the playground.

Literally it seemed as if my bullets were not REACHING him. My shots were dead on, my aim was dead on, and I even tried running Bullet Time at maximum slowness until the shot was fully fired, then I even tried leaving bullet time ON until the shot SHOULD have hit him..in fact I let it 'sit' turned on until it drained my AP, which took around 20 seconds.

NOTHING...no hits..nothing. Either the twerp had some kind of cover from an invisible section of a .nif or navmesh, or I dunno what.

It's not supposedly integrated, it's 100% integrated, there is absolutly no difference between FWE and the headshot deluxe edition mod.

I usually kill Arkansas with a hunting rifle from the other end of Minefield.

Not to derail Arwen's thread . . . but the bold point above is what may account for the difference. The accuracy formula's in FWE are different from the vanilla game, and doesn't have anything to do with the auto-aim settings, which are the same. The base accuracy across the board is a little lower in FWE compared to vanilla, even at the highest skill levels.

Even so, you should be able to snipe from pretty far away accurately, I certainly seem to be able too.

Hi Gothemasticator

I agree that stat-building is a primary game mechanic. If you are suggesting that the ballistic changes we have been discussing reduces that element you are mistaken.

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by this? If you are suggesting that bringing game weapons closer in line with their realworld counterparts somehow makes the game unplayable, then I assure you that is not the case. If you are again suggesting that it reduces the importance of RPG stats in favor of FPS style shootiness, then that also is definitely incorrect.


Yes, tweaking the numbers for realism results in dramatically more lethal weapons. It is unlikely you will survive more than a few hits, and since I am also using the Real Injuries mod, even a leg shot can result in crippling and life threatening bleeding. I'm still not sure what you mean by "unbalances things" though. Such changes definitely force you to change your play style (more need for stealth, engaging from longer range, use of cover and more careful planning of attacks), but it definitely doesn't make the game unplayable and frankly I think the added elements of danger, and need for more thought, adds rather than detracts from the experience.


I believe that most people who talk about "Realism" in a game are actually talking about immersion. I have always taken the world "realistic" in game terms to mean that, things in the game environment are close enough to one's understanding and expecations of how things work in the real world that they do not detract from this feeling of immersion.
In a game that has weapons as a primary play element, then it seems critical to me that they operate in such a fashion as to support, rather than hinder immersiveness. This is especially true given that many of the game weapons clearly mirror ones in the real world (and which many people may be familiar with).
This was definitely not the case with the stock game. The forums are full of complaints about weapon inaccuracy and the need to pump 6 shots into a raider's head to put him down.
Arwen's tweaks definitely aim to adjust this element to increase realism/immersion. I have been playing with somewhat more extreme numbers than she has, but I believe our basic intent is the same.
Unfortunately, the intricacies of the how exactly to adjust the underlying stats in the GECK to achieve this are not clearly understood. I am not suggesting (and I am definitely not 'harping') that she change her excellent mod to accomodate my personal tastes. I am merely trying to provide feedback on some elements of the game mechanic, which I hope will be of some use in helping her to refine her mod.