The legion is over the top in a fallout context,nor are they really fleshed out so i say ashur.

To me Ashur is more likeable then Caesar is, but Ashur's accomplishments can't compare to Caesar's accomplishments. In the end, I prefer Caesar over Ashur.

True, but then again, it was the pre-war America (in it's own part) who drove the world to the state it is now, which is what he is trying to avoid mimicing. At all costs, it seems.

I didn't vote. I found it way too difficult to decide.

What I can say is that my last Lone Wanderer sided with Ashur, since she got the impression Wernher and Midea were morons. To her, Ashur stood a chance of making a prospering nation, whereas Wernher and Midea would just wreck everything for some outdated values.

My characters have had differing opinions about Caesar, but I shouldn't comment since I have yet to complete a Legion playthrough.

As far as the feel of the Fallout universe goes, I'd say The Pitt has a better chance of going the distance than the Legion. In the Fallout universe, US-spanning empires don't last, and superpowers live against the clock. NCR and Legion are both going up against that, whereas the Pitt just aims to become a producing nation.

-Nukeknockout

the whole time you've been arguing, caesar conquered 37 more tribes and laid waste to the Pitt and everyone in it

And yet, he continued to be a unlikable and unrealistic character the whole time.

Actually they don't have a ZAX computer like Eden. It's a super computer whose software is capable of amazing predictions.
But it's not capable of achieving sentience nor truly the leader but a statistical help.


Actually a link in this thread points to them intentionally creating him not as a likable man.

He also isn't trying to rebuild the Roman Empire. That's what everyone seems to overlook.
He emulates certain things on the roman empire (army), but he is building something quite different. A nation in which all identity is linked to the state.
The idea being that through that indoctrination and homogeneity the inhabitants are less likely to rebel or otherwise hinder the state.

All in all, most of the comments don't seem to suggest he is better written, just that they like Ashur better or find him more identifiable. The general dislike people have for him seem to point to the opposite in fact.

The Pitt would try to expand eventually like the NCR and Legion, however I don't think it'll live long enough to get to that point. Ashur hasn't really been that successful in his mission despite the decades he's spent there, and when Ashur dies his faction will crumble just like the Legion because like Caesar he doesn't seem particularly concerned with how things will carry on without him, and his army consists of people who are just as likely to kill each other as they are slaves. I think what Marcus said about the Legion rings true with Ashur's army as well, the raiders in the Pitt are following Ashur and not his beliefs; they'll tear each other apart after he dies.

I voted Ashur. I'm surprised how many people did, actually. I would've liked to see Eulogy Jones be included as well. He has his troops and guards, but uses slavery as business instead of a workforce of army.

I remember playing The Pitt for the first time, and right up to the point I walked into Haven I was planning on killing every one of those Raiders, until I met Ashur and found him very intriguing. I also really liked his holotapes he left for Marie. Really fleshed out his character.

Not really. China attacked first and China most likely launched first strike. All America was doing was protecting its interests (stayed out of the resource wars for over a decade). The dystopian society depicted in various sources in the games are just a product of a decade of total war - and for a good reason as there appears to have been legions of fifth columnists across America.

I thought who launched first was a mystery. I know Richardson claims it was China, but he's not really a reliable and unbiased source, now is he?

Anyways, it isn't really the point who started, but the state of affairs which caused the conflict.

Actually yes he is. If anyone can be trusted to give a reliable account of what occurred pre-war, its the remnants of the American Government and its leader.

Richardson also has absolutely no reason to lie to the Chosen One, after all he just outlined his plan for global genocide, I hardly think saying "yeah, we started it" is going to have any further detrimental effect on what the CO thinks of him. Certainly Richardson isn't worried about being killed either, since he is willing to make that sacrifice.

Richardson's statement is also backed up by the nature of what was going on at the time. It was China who was being backed into the proverbial corner, not the U.S. China had the motivation to launch as per a sort of "I'm not going down alone" approach, while the U.S. could only hurt itself further and at the same time ruin their chances for domination on the political map with the addition of China and Canada's resources.



Fair enough, but the Shi revere him as some sort of ceremonial figurehead in any case. While the Shi Emperor may not dictate orders (I forgot he isn't a ZAX) he is still the symbolic head of the Shi in some form. Even the "true" leadership of the Shi seem to be unwilling to take power publicly, which indicates some sort of nominal deference to the AI.

EDIT: Back on topic



Ashur's full plan however, is to prevent that from happening. Marie is likely set to be Ashur's direct hereditary heir to the Pitt (Queen of the Pitt?) and if a cure is indeed found with Marie's help, he could undoubtedly use that to shore up Marie's legitimacy.

In any case, he wants to pacifiy the raiders tendency to fight amongst themselves and attempt to turn them into a more civilized bunch.

I'm not surprised. The Pitt is a really good story. It's like a cooler grittier-wasteland version of DM and Caesar's Legion.

So be it then. I'm not one to start arguing about it as I don't find it an issue, but I don't see an idealistic government official playing in his and his beliefs' pockets even in a situation like that such a foreign idea -- or, alternatively, that he's spewing things he was taught to believe, as the nationalism and national pride appeared pretty strong beforehand.

I do think that who started the war was mostly meant to remain in the middle.

But the evidence seems to be pilled toward China. It's a shame though, the Enclave's plans pre-war always made it equally viable that they launched first and added to the mystery.

Nope, slave labor is profitable. However, instead of forceful slavery, they'll probably use a model that resembles a more recent model like say, 15th Century Asia. Slaves existed but there were also guys who technically owned the land but needed to pay a hefty sum to the town baron. Ashur will probably make them do that. They are slaves as the barons use them for labor but they have just as much rights as a civilian.
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Anyways, given that the development of Caesar's Legion wasn't as sound as the devs wanted it to be...yeah. Still a good faction to run with. After all, J.E Sawyer's message should be canon. If not, well he's not contradicting anything in the game. After all, men are killed in conquests in Caesar's Legion and they need slaves somewhere...

Your first statement is total speculation that is pretty much baseless.

I think Sawyer kind had a very diplomatic answer as he seemed to refuse to compare Ashur and Caesar saying they are very different...uh yeah they are different but that still doesn't mean you can't compare them. His answer sounded like he didn't want to offend the guy who wrote the Legion.

Ashur indeed felt sorry for the scavengers who were trying to take his armor once he learned thier plight....Eddie saw the Blackfeet as svckers he could easily use to gain the place in history he felt entitled to. While I do not believe Ashur started with the goal of being a conqueror, I think by the time the LR visits he was considering expanding and imposing order on the area around him. He probably would have been ruling over much of Western Pennsylvania by the mid 2280s. Putting settlements outside the contaminated zone around Pittsburgh would have enabled him to get food without raiding and expand the numbers of his subjects naturally.



The Legion could only match the NCR because the NCR declined to use it's latent strength. In one conversation Eddie even says that if Kimball had gained power by a putsch he would have stayed far from the NCR's borders...he did not say why, but most likely it was because a Dictator could marshal the NCR's entire economic and numerical strength towards the single goal of squashing Eddie and his cos-players like a bug.




Oh, yes....the CL is a Totalitarian State, Eddie is quite proud of it, too. Like how Eddie winks at cannibalism, the CL lovers don't like to talk about that, though. In many ways, the CL resembles the USSR under Lenin and Stalin...a state that requires slave labor and terror merely to survive.

Ashur neither has the power nor ability to pull of what Caesar and the Legion can do. He's small time and lacks the vision and manpower to do what is necessary.

As for my first statement, that's just some speculation. Ashur will never abolish slavery, merely change it. That was just an idea of how he might have.

Caesar, well Sawyer seemed to me like he wanted to say that the Legion should be more fleshed out and have better clarification to their incentive and their actual social life rather than just showing a war camp.

All he'd have to do is pull an FDR and temporarily dedicate the nation to war, there's no need for that to be permanent.

Caesar 2: Still Pwning

This time it's pwnsonal.

I'm I the only one who is surprised that this turned into a big issue?

Ashur picked his friends poorly then, he's not going to pacify an army of depraved psychopaths.

Ave, true to Ashur!