I think that Ashur and his Pitt Raiders were better fleshed out as a faction in such a short period of time than Caesar and his Legion. Unlike Caesar, Ashur doesn't enjoy what he does but he believes in the end process. Nor does Ashur think of himself as a God nor does he have that jerk lack luster charisma that Caesar has. I mean seriously, if it was Ashur and his Pitt Raiders instead of Caesar and his Legion, how much cooler would that be. Ashur all around is just so much more gray than Caesar.

Ashur, definitely. One of the gems of Fallout 3. Ashur is a leader, knows his limits, and isn't a delusional idiot who gets kicks for oppressing minorities. Pitt will definitely become NCR-like powerhouse on the East Coast in the long run. Truly, the only faction I appreciate besides the Enclave.

I never really liked Caesar's Legion. It's explained well and all but I can't help but to think it's just too over-the-top for the setting. They are organized but they have serious fundamental flaws ranging from class society to having the nation as personal property of its founder (Caesar constantly refers to the Legion as "his" Legion, and naming a nation after yourself will lead to problems after you die). Really, the only good side in the Legion is that they like killing, includes raiders. Other than that, they are the worst thing to walk the Wasteland since Master's Army.

Legion isn't a long term society. It lives on blood and it will run out sooner or later. We only have Caesar's word that things will become better after Vegas is his. But I wonder how many times he has said that? Caesar is the guy who wages total war even he will die of cancer unless the Courier saves his sorry ass.

I say Caesar. Caesar seems to have put a little more thought into his plan than Ashulr did. Caesar starts a new civilization, a civilization that has rules and codes to live by, therefore after Ceasat dies the Legion will live on (even if Lanius takes over, though it will be weakened). Ashur in the other hand has not tried to male the Pitt slavers anything more than a raider gang. If Ashur had tried to instruct the raiders on his end goals (resurrecting humanity via industry) the Pitt would be better off. However, once Ashur dies I have no doubt that the different slaver groups will just fight each other; or that the slaves will revolt. If the former happens, whoever dominates the Pitt will only use the Pitt's resources to do what raiders do: [censored] and pillage. If the slaves revolt (and win) the slaves will use the Pitt's resources to protect themselves from raiders, nothing more. The only way the Pitt can bring any kind of big difference on the world stage is if some other (bigger) faction takes control, either Lyons's BoS or the Commonwealth.

Ashur is way more awesome and therein lies the rub. Caesar is King [censored]. Caesar, due to just how much of a bastard he became, managed to rally everything surrounding into the Legion. Honorable people are willing to die for Caesar. Pissants are willing to die for Ashur. I love killing Raiders and the notion of Ashur making a "Can you count, svckers?" speech to every mercenary East of the Mississippi, in order to steamroll West, may be something I have dreamed about but I still think that the personalities surrounding Caesar give the Legion more flavor to fight against. I have to first be immersed in the side I am taking (BoS, NCR, House, etc.) to legitimize making war on the Legion. I like the combat in Fallout so I roleplay the soldier-gone-independent (not truly mercenary) and therefore carefully choose when he no longer observes the wasteland but begins liquidating a sizable part of it. My personal preferences aside, I always gave the same amount of thought to killing raiders as I would feral ghouls. Legionnaires may originate from an oppressive and even slave taking society but they protect their own to a greater extent than raiders.

Very well said and articulate.

Personally I was never really fond of the concept of Caesar's Legion. The fact that they attempt rather poorly to emulate ancient Rome is a major point of contention for me. That and Caesar apparently hasn't read the history of Alexander the Great or other such examples where an empire is held together only by the existence of one man. Once Caesar has died, civil war will break out, it is inevitable. The Legion will dissolve into the small individualistic states and tribes which once formed it.

Also, Caesar's insistence on shunning technology is something I cannot abide. Ashur at least, seems to understand the importance of industrialization.

Ashur. The Pitt on the whole was one of the better done areas in Fallout 3 by a wide margin even if I don't think the dilemma is as morally complex as some make it out to be.

However I really don't like the Legion very much. Importing Romans wholesale into Fallout with some variation is not an ideal way to develop the universe. It just seems too ridiculous and out of place to me. The faction as a whole I also find unappealing and awful but that describes Ashur in my opinion as well so it's kinda a wash in that regard.

Ditto on all points. The rather poor emulation of Rome and Caesar's willful ignorance and unattractive demeanor is really over the top for the setting. Ashur is smart enough to use indutrialization and reforming his work to transform his city into a sustainable state that isn't dependent on him. Ashur admits what he does is barbaric and he takes no pleasure in it and he wants to build a city that can be self sustainable. It's kind of depressing that Ashur and his Pitt will probably never get developed in future games when he and his work force had an amazing premise.

I can't really comment on the better story and lore. I think that there is a lot of story and lore to the Legion (though New Vegas left it a little bit unused). The history to Ashur and the Pitt seems to pretty much be there, but it's potential future is what really set it apart.

I don't like the Legion, but there is a lot of potential there. Too see what the Legions own lands were and are like, the future of the Legion without Caesar and a defeat at the Dam and even how the person of Edward Swallow turned into a despot.
That said I very much like Ashur, since he seems well aware of his flaws and limitations and can be considered a down to earth and somewhat honest leader. The story of the Pitt left me wanting more, to know how it would fair (especially under Ashur), to see if his vision came through or changed.

I do think The Pitt balances more precarious on its strong leader. The Legate is a capable and strong leader, who seems to be properly indoctrinated to the ideal of the State, feared and respected by many. He will not carry on the actual will of Caesar, though, as he is driven by war glory and conquest and under him a transformation of the Legion will not come to pass.
The Pitt however has no one to replace Ashur and continue his vision. It is clear that they raiders don't really see each other as superiors and with Ashur they would likely devolve into waring factions.

EDIT: The Legion doesn't shun technology. They stress self-reliance and being able to go on when your equipment fails you. Most of the things they outlaw are addictive drugs (with the possibility of making your troops depended on them) and they have no compunctions on using a howitzer or acquiring energy weapons.

This completely.

According to the Official Fallout 3 Strategy Guide, Ashur plans to use his army to expand. The official guide said that, so it is lore.

Your just wrong on so many levels.

He's enslaving people by the hundreds and working them to death in a hellhole because he's obsessed with a steel mill. Don't see anything morally complex about it.

um, yeah there's more to it than that. Your totally disregarding the history of the Pitt, why the environment came to pass, and what his ultimate intentions are. As Ashur would say "we have an army, an industry, and a reason not to fear radiation anymore. It takes a lot of work to build a city....the Brotherhood is just lazy, if there isn't a machine to do it for them, there not interested what has to be done today and in the future."

It is complex, your just ignoring it.

What am I ignoring exactly? The Pitt is not a livable location. People who are brought there invariably sicken and die and the entire native population is infertile. Yet Ashur has chosen to make it the focal point of his new nation because he's obsessed with a working steel mill.

Ultimate intentions are completely unimportant. No one thinks of themselves as the villain in their own heads. I'm sure Ashur's intentions are good, as are Caesar's, as were Richardson's, as were the Master's yet all of those people were wrong and committing great evil whether they saw it or not.

Wait, I'm not backing Ashur's agenda. In fact I often kill him and free the slaves but sometimes I side with him. I'm just saying his faction, leadership, goals, and methods are much more suited to the world of Fallout and have a much better written lore and story than Caesar's Legion.

For example, I like the east coast B.O.S. because they ditched their close minded west coast lore, which was stupid in the first place.

I found the Legion to be more interesting. Caesar was a more interesting character than Ashur, and the Legion as a whole, while and maybe because of being more "alien" (but not too "alien" to not fit in enough) to the setting than Ashurs gang, felt more compelling and "explorable".

lol, typical anti-Fallout 3 language. Obviously some bias here.

No argument from me on that one. Ashur's raiders are much closer to what I would love to see in Fallout than Caesar's Legion which just feels very out of place to me.



Can't agree here though. I can't stand the East Coast Brotherhood. The West Coast was interesting because they weren't a typical faction concerning themselves with rebuilding the world or conquering territory. The East Coast has no connection to the real Brotherhood beyond power armor and stupid titles and their overall agenda is too idealistic for Fallout. If you must make the Brotherhood a typical political faction the Midwest is the way to go.

Ashur. One of the brightest sides of F3 writing.


Haha, and who's talking? :tongue:


I agree. I find the idea of isonationist tech-zealots much more interesting and original than a bunch of washed-up, cliché Knights of the Yore.

I mean, apart from the fact they are shooting any ghouls, is there anything even remotely interesting about them? They are completely one dimensional IMHO.

What the [censored]? :laugh:

Ugh, how am I biased? I've said New Vegas is better than Fallout 3.

I voted Ashur, simply because I feel that his story has more point - the industrialisation he is working towards is at least necessary, even if I abhor his methods of achieving it. A human sacrifice for the greater good, so to speak. The same is often applied to Caesar's regime, but in my opinion its not quite the same situation. The NCR, for all its flaws, already provides democracy and security for its citizens and is already a superior option. It could achieve even more if it didn't have huge resources tied up fighting the Legion, which is more one man's glory crusade, than anything else.

Just my two caps.

How is finding the Legion more interesting being "obviously biased against Fallout 3", and does that obvious bias apply to everyone, or just for those who are critical about Fallout 3?

This^ I couldn't have said it any better myself. My vote goes to Ashur.