Ashur's methods are good in the long term, his methods short term though are bad. I always side with Ashur, if you read his journal entries in his room that will give some information about him.

That's the thing, The ends DO NOT justify the means. IMO It takes an even braver man to not resort to such actions. That being said, since he did resort to such a lowly practice he still should've provided better working conditions. Better medicine, better treatment, more rest, better food etc. As a former member of the BOS this was entirely within his capabilities to accomplish. He did none of this, he continued to mistreat and allow the mistreatment of his workers(slaves) by his underlings in ThePitt. That makes him a man of extremely low character, right along with his former lieutenant Wehrner.

Neither one of these two are to be trusted. What makes anyone believe that Ashur will ever free the slaves? Should we just take him at his word and believe him the same way we were supposed to take the word of Wehrner? The same fellow who it turned out to be a liar himself?

Sorry, but for me it's still a matter of which choice bothers me the least. My choices are my own just the same as the choices you make are your own, but let's be realistic, neither man is of good moral character and will never win the man of the year award. Both have admirable goals in mind but for selfish reasons their methods to achieve those goals are abhorrent.

Hmm, mistaken thinking, in my opinion. Sure, he gave them food and shelter, maybe even they are better off in The Pitt than fending for themselves in the Wastes. That's not the point though, Ashur took away their right to choose, and that is the difference between slavery and freedom.

k, first off the slavers at paradise falls took away what meger rights they had
living a pittiful life in the wastes. Ashur realesed them from there cages. futher-
more, Ashur is trying to bring back power to a Great Nation.

you see, when the bombs fell, human rights and morality went buh-bye. its now
a cruel savage world. every nation at one time started with questionable morality
and human rights. thats the way it is. thats how human think when faced with
hard choises. "the ends justify the means"..

or as Spock once said.. "sacrifice the few, to SAVE the many", this my friend,
is exactly what Ashur is doing.

They were using slaves for personal profit, they weren't making anything any better. They didn't give speeches to the slaves to inspire them, they actually thought of them as property.

Ashur goes and makes announcements, and speeches himself. He's trying to make The Pitt a better place, regardless of the measures he has to take. It's hard for everyone, not just the slaves. He actually cares about the slaves, what's more, he calls them workers, not slaves and I think they're living pretty well compared to Wastelanders. They don't have to fear being mauled to death by a Deathclaw, all they have to do is do their job right. They don't have to get their own food, they don't have to search for a place to sleep, nothing.

There are classes in society, unless it's a communism. That's a simple fact of life.

After two hundred years of zero progress in the East Coast, I find Ashur the best choice for a better future, after the Enclave.

My recollection of the Pitt is very different, I saw slaves being lined up against the wall and shot, I saw one being chased down by several slavers and killed. Slaves are forced to eat dead people half turned into something else by this disease, and they are forced to collect steel in a place that no-one ever comes back from and the leader holds entertainment for himself where slaves fight to the death for freedom. This is only what I saw I don't want to think about what happened to the women behind closed doors..... This does not demonstrate he cares about his 'workers' in my mind. It demonstrates he is a leader who knows how to control people.

Basically I think you are better off facing the chance to flee from a deathclaw in the open wasteland.

I finally think Ashur is bad.

Yep
1) Enclave
2) Ashur

They're both bad with their own warped veiws of good.

It's commendable to try and rebuild a city, but it shouldn't have to be through slavery. These people are literally being worked to death. If they slack off, they die.

It's commendable to try and free the slaves and seek a cure, but Wherner shouldn't have to kidnap a baby where he'll most likely mistreat it and see it as a means to a cure.

In some sense, they both want the same two things, but the way they're going about it is bad.

I think he's pretty much neutral. Good intentions with bad actions.

The world is a wasteland. He was left for dead, almost got looted instead of helped, and rose to power over raiders, slavers, and other scum.
He used his influence and power to build up the Pitt with hopes of one day having it become a glimmering beacon of hope within an ever-present graveyard.

Sometimes you gotta flex a little muscle to get things done. It's not pretty, but it's effective.

I'd put Ashur ahead of the Enclave....while the Enclave sat in thier holes licking thier wounds and fiddling with FEV Ashur was out there taking the Raiders and Trogs head on and winning. In 20 years he took the Pitt from nothing to one of the most powerful empires East of the Mississippi. If he had the Enclave's tech he would rule most of what was New England by 2077.

Ashur is bad, slavery is wrong no matter how much you sugar coat it, no grey area wrong period

First of all this question is one of the reasons why The Pitt from a story telling aspect was an AWESOME mod. The agony of choosing literally had me on forums reading folks views before making a decision.

So I've played out both scenarios at first siding with the slavery-is-always-wrong side of the coin, and then I flopped to the-ends-justify-the-means, but ultimately I'm back to my first stance for a couple of reasons.

So ignoring Werner all together and focusing only on Ashur here are my issues. Ashur's army is comprised of raiders. The same sick, twisted, people who hang dead bodies all over for decoration. There's a scene where Ashur is talking to one of the raiders and corrects his use of the word 'slave' with 'worker'. This illustrates the point that his army are all evil raider a**holes who REALLY don't care about the slaves. Ashur has said he wants to free the slaves and is ashamed of having slavery, but the raiders will always be oppressive scum. In the end my decision was based on the fact that I didn't want evil people (Ashur and his raider army) to accumulate more power and increase the scope of their atrocities in the name of progress. So I put a .44 slug in his skull.

I felt bad about killing a guy who, if this weren't a programmed game, could probably have been brought over to the right way of doing thins, and leaving his child parent-less, but it had to be done. I know the Pitt only get's worse after Ashur is gone because he held it together, but I'd rather it be built back up, even if that means it takes longer, the right way than as a den for slavers and raiders. Besides, if they can't do it right i'd rather they all die. So much F**ked up stuff has happened to the world in the wake of nuclear apocalypse. Only people who care about other people and rebuilding deserve a place rebuilding. In the end, if you live by the sword you die by the sword.

TLDR: Ashur's army would never allow the slaves to be freed and would always be scummy raiders. The cure is better off in the freed slaves hands so that they can rebuild the Pitt without the use of slavery reinforced by violence.

By leaving Wernher out, you're essentially criminalizing Ashur. When you side with Ashur, he makes it full well known to you he'll inoculate the citizens of the pitt, and he'll slowly ween out of slavery and into free labor. Wernher only wanted the power and the cure, but the results will still take just as much time. AND he 'helps' you by making Uptown become Trog infested, which Uptown could have been turned into a safe haven or refure for slaves. All in all, apart from slavery. Ashur is the last best hope for The Pitt.

the problem with the fallout world is that those "people who care about people" IE the BoS and wastelanders,
are doing sweet FA to rebuild America.
despite the contrary, you can't live on love .. when blood, sweat, and tears takes over,
thats when s*** gets done.

Like I said in my post. All they have to do is do their job right. If they don't, they get shot down, chased around, and whatever else. Also, not all of them have that done to them, they probably did something really bad to get shot. http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab344/Holy_Assassin47/15092010228.jpg?t=1285695540 He's gotten himself in trouble, this is his punishment. Is he dead? Nope.

As for The Hole, its not like he forces anyone to fight, they volunteer. It's survival of the fittest. Besides, the ones who are free are then required to go and hunt for food. The Hole is a proving grounds more than anything else. Are exam halls bad? Not really. It's the same thing.

(The pic is taken by me, so don't mind quality please.)

I see Asher as neutral, with a solid plan to make the Pitt work long haul.
He seems to be a man of his word as well.

He is one of the few rebuilders I have seen in the Wasteland as well, which is another tale in its own right.

His cure is right out of the movie "Iam Legend", or "The Omega Man" (1970) in a way, and likely hard to synthesize.
I cast my lot in with Ashur.

im dnt think hes good or bad. i think he has good intentions with good motives, but he seems to understand that things cant progress without breaking some eggs.

i usaly side with him though

I think Ashur was an evil bastard until his daughter was born and he went soft. When Werner noticed Ashur's weakness he made his move, and the rest is history DLC.

Wasn't that weak....without the LW Wernher was out in the cold all alone while Ashur sat as firmly in the saddle as ever. Speaking of that.....what happened to the Raiders that backed his play? Seems Ashur topped them all. Wernher probably legged it before the putsch attempt even failed and left his followers to twist in the wind. Poor judgment and lacks guts....the Pitt probably wouldn't last five years under Wernher.

I let Ashur live in the end simply for the sake of his child. At least she will have loving parents that will care for her instead of a worm like Wherner who will no doubt mistreat her and maybe even use her as a way to vent out his frustrations because she's the daughter of the man that enslaved them all.

Of course, when Wherner and the others called me a spineless wimp for not kidnapping a baby, I was not a happy Lone Wanderer. :cryvaultboy:

good intentions, attemted good motives. Ashur tries to make a world fit for his family, but he needs gaurds and workers to fix the broken city. Noones going to volunteer to work in somewhere that bad, especially after the scourge. He had to do a temp thing, and decided to use raiders and slaves as a temp. solution. With the special case of his daughter, he needs his workers more then ever, for once the research is complete, the Pitt could be made a better place for everyone.

Ashur has good intentions, but had to make some hard choices. Turning to slaves and raiders was the only way he would get the town running again, at least until they work out the cure. You can see that he doesn't like the slavery, in his dialogue with the raider when you first meet him. He insists on calling them 'workers' instead of 'slaves'. I think of Ashur as the good guy, and Werner as the bad guy.

Ashur the good guy? Hardly. Neither is Wernher for that matter, they're both scum.

If Ashur really gave a damn about the welfare of the slaves, he would have gotten the hell out of there at the first signs of Trog disease rather than continuing to force people to work until they either mutated or died in order to make a bunch of steel that nobody either needs or knows how to build with. For that matter, if he really cared about the workers as much as he claims he does he wouldn't have had them forcibly brought there in the first place since he knows it's a death sentence.

As a former member of the BoS Ashur is likely well aware of needing to take precautions in hazardous working conditions (he does wear Power Armor, after all), but conveniently ignores it when it suits him. If you know that working in an area is deadly and you have a means of countering said danger, you make sure those who will be going into the 'hot zone' employ said counter before they are exposed rather than after; Ashur does not do this, and IMO that makes him complicit in the deaths of the slaves regardless of his protestations to the contrary.

As for getting the Pitt up and running again, I would say that the development and distribution of the cure should take absolute priority since until that happens there will not be anyone willing to go to the Pitt as it's a known deathtrap. That said, even with the cure it wouldn't be a good place to be since getting anywhere near the river will give you a fatal dose of radiation poisoning, and even the puddles in the potholes are toxic unless you have good radiation resistance.

If Ashur is really serious about his claims he should be mass-producing the cure and bringing in large quantities of anti-radiation supplies and protective wear and setting people to work cleaning up the place rather than getting the steel mill running. Once the work environment is safer, then and only then should the work at/on the mill begin. Since this is clearly not the case, Ashur's statements to the contrary come across as nothing more than propaganda aimed at convincing himself and anyone else who will listen that he hasn't sunk to the same level as the Raiders who work for him.

There is no 'good guy' in the Pitt; rather, it's a question of which of them is the least despicable. I've sided with each of them at least once, and the conclusion I've reached is that the best thing to do is conduct another Scourge and level the place, and then cart the baby off to the Citadel where the Scribes can do the research.

You get paid for doing a job, slaves don't get paid so it's not a job, it's more like a hard labor prison sentence, certainly not a job.

You don't get killed if you don't pass an exam, so that's not really a relevant comparison, and the hole as far I have found is the only route for slaves not to be slaves (other than the revolt), so it's not suprising those abused who can't take it any more would select to risk their lives in order to be 'free'.

The steel yard, why aren't the slavers with all their amo clearing out the trogs and getting the steel themselves? Shall we agree it's easier to just send slaves in, save amo (which isn't a problem to the slaves because of the press), but amo is clearly more valuable to the slavers compared to people.

For me a leader that allows this sort of thing to happen is not good. It's very easy to pay lip service to the lone wanderer and talk about all the positive things he does. I've said in a post previously, Ashur seems to do a speech check before he speaks to the lone wanderer and Ashur is always 100% successful and auto charms players left right and centre!

The 3 lined up and shot at the begining of the Pitt when you first enter were attempting to escape, I don't think that is a justification for execution. The poor chap in the stocks I have found is always killed by the slavers once the revolt starts, he's stuck there, can't run, clearly has nothing to do with the revolt and they kill him anyway.